Delta Disqualifiers

mshunter said:
If you look at the amount of military aviators out there vs civilian, that chart actually looks pretty bad.
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By "bad", do you mean that it shows that Delta is currently favoring hiring former military pilots? Do you mean it is bad that they are doing that, or bad because it seems to show that it was tougher for a civilian background pilot to get hired by Delta last year?

Based on the reports I'm hearing from the ton of new-hires at SouthernJets that I used to work with, the company is not terribly secretive about that their current hiring strategy here at the beginning of the hiring wave is to grab as many guys leaving the military as they can before the other legacies get them. That pool of guys is a finite resource due to the landscape of the last 10-15 years in the military (the change from a 8-year to 10-year commitment around 2000/2001, a bubble of AF pilots produced in the early-mid '00s who are all at the end of their commitments), internal changes occurring in the military (a changing warrior/corporate culture, the emergence and expansion of the UAV/RPA pilot career field), and lots of guys just tired of the endless deployments and ready to move on to the next part of life. That pool of military guys who want to go to the airlines is going to dramatically decline in the next 5-10 years, and someone at Big D decided they wanted to hire off the "Tier 1" folks from that pool before someone else does.

That strategy may put a burr under your saddle as a non-military pilot, but remember that there is also a legacy out there currently hiring that seems to have a bias against military guys in their hiring process, too, so the playing field isn't slanted to favor military guys. I also know plenty of highly qualified, experienced military guys who aren't getting the call from Delta, myself included, who look at that chart and are also frustrated -- being a military pilot isn't a magic elixir that gives you a big-time-airline-job whenever you choose.

I'd love to see AA's and UA's statistics for comparison.
 
Maurus said:
Not a problem :). Most people IMO that trash their first year need to grow up. I know I did. I was one of those people that were able to just show up in High School and still get a 3.0. Then I went to college and got hammered (not in the good way).
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Yep! Been there, done that...and managed to graduate with a 3.0 as well. Even got into grad school despite my poor early performance in undergrad. This after several years of no schooling to figure out what the hell I was doing wrong.
 
Hacker15e said:
By "bad", do you mean that it shows that Delta is currently favoring hiring former military pilots? Do you mean it is bad that they are doing that, or bad because it seems to show that it was tougher for a civilian background pilot to get hired by Delta last year?

Based on the reports I'm hearing from the ton of new-hires at SouthernJets that I used to work with, the company is not terribly secretive about that their current hiring strategy here at the beginning of the hiring wave is to grab as many guys leaving the military as they can before the other legacies get them. That pool of guys is a finite resource due to the landscape of the last 10-15 years in the military (the change from a 8-year to 10-year commitment around 2000/2001, a bubble of AF pilots produced in the early-mid '00s who are all at the end of their commitments), internal changes occurring in the military (a changing warrior/corporate culture, the emergence and expansion of the UAV/RPA pilot career field), and lots of guys just tired of the endless deployments and ready to move on to the next part of life. That pool of military guys who want to go to the airlines is going to dramatically decline in the next 5-10 years, and someone at Big D decided they wanted to hire off the "Tier 1" folks from that pool before someone else does.

That strategy may put a burr under your saddle as a non-military pilot, but remember that there is also a legacy out there currently hiring that seems to have a bias against military guys in their hiring process, too, so the playing field isn't slanted to favor military guys. I also know plenty of highly qualified, experienced military guys who aren't getting the call from Delta, myself included, who look at that chart and are also frustrated -- being a military pilot isn't a magic elixir that gives you a big-time-airline-job whenever you choose.

I'd love to see AA's and UA's statistics for comparison.
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mshunter said:
The amount of military pilots out there is far less than the amount of civilian pilots. But I'm all for giving those guys jobs. That doesn't bother me at all. If you are willing to put your ass on the line so I can say ass here, then you can skip ahead in line all you want. You've earned it as far as I'm concerned.
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Next time, read the whole thread. I quoted myself here. It looks bad because it shows serious bias. But, IMO, military has earned that. Because I can totally say ass here. Were it me on a hiring board, and all qualifications equal, I'd go for the military guy first too.
 
Having been through Army military flight school, and I can safely assume having spoken at length with my USAF and Naval Aviation brothers and sisters: Military pilots aren't special. (We think we are, but we aren't.)
What does seperate us, is that we've graduated a flight school program that goes above and beyond what a a rigorous 121 program looks like. And that is partially what HR looks for. Can tweedle-Dee pass our program? Generally a no-brainer with a mil bubba.

As for personality, all bets are off.

This is my speculation on why there is a military bias. Not because the F15 flies like an Airbus.
 
Oft repeated, some airlines prefer "know quantity" candidates, including military and (even as much as I rail against it) university aviation programs.
 
Derg said:
Oft repeated, some airlines prefer "know quantity" candidates, including military and (even as much as I rail against it) university aviation programs.
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This. Known quantity counts for a lot. A family member of mine who was a management pilot at a legacy said this basically verbatim. He said with a military guy, you know you're getting a guy who has passed the toughest flight program in the world, a guy who is disciplined (more than likely), can be expected to wear the uniform correctly, and can be instructed to fly how the airline wants it done. He also said that after five years on the line, you can't tell the difference between the skills of the military aviator and the civilian, which speaks to the training program of the specific airline.
 
mastermags said:
This. Known quantity counts for a lot. A family member of mine who was a management pilot at a legacy said this basically verbatim. He said with a military guy, you know you're getting a guy who has passed the toughest flight program in the world, a guy who is disciplined (more than likely), can be expected to wear the uniform correctly, and can be instructed to fly how the airline wants it done. He also said that after five years on the line, you can't tell the difference between the skills of the military aviator and the civilian, which speaks to the training program of the specific airline.
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Eeeeeeyup.

Love it or hate it, it is what it is and it's something that the aviation internet needs to find peace with.

Southernjets, apparently, likes to hire cabin crew off the street and preferences against previous employment at other airlines. Does it make sense? I don't know, but it's what they want and the company is stacking cheddar.
 
mastermags said:
He also said that after five years on the line, you can't tell the difference between the skills of the military aviator and the civilian,
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So then why not hold a guy from a regional airline to the same height if he's been there for the same number of years?
 
Derg said:
Oft repeated, some airlines prefer "know quantity" candidates, including military and (even as much as I rail against it) university aviation programs.
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While I agree with your premise, the ultimate kick in the junk is this...,. And let me preface this by saying that I am most certainly NOT Delta material so no dog in this fight for me as I will never come close to being considered and perhaps that does irritate me to an extent but here's the deal as I see it from where I sit. There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots out here who have already sucessfuly made it through at least one part 121 training program, most of us more than one, flying around everyday including myself, in the same airspace, in the same weather, flying the same approaches into the same airports (and into some smaller, more challenging ones) talking to the same contollers while behind the controls of 76 seat jets, safely, without any FAA actions or violations on our records WITH DELTA PAYING PASSENGERS ALREADY SITTING BEHIND US! Yet because of a lack of a 4 year degree, or a GPA below a particular value or a busted checkride yada, yada, yada.... No soup for you! You are plenty good enough to fly our feed, our beloved paying passengers but not good enough to fly them for us. To me this fact is the ultimate definition of hypocrisy if there ever was one. One level of safety right? And to be clear here, this not a dogpile on Delta, this applies to all the other legacies out there who farm out up to half of their flying as well. There, rant over and I feel much better...:D:D
 
I would maybe just observe that when the Legacies have majority civilian-trained pilots in the upper echelons of decision-makers (which will inevitably happen), and these civilian-trained pilots start uhm "discovering" rationales to give preference to their buddies, I don't want to hear any bleating containing the word "fair".
 
mastermags said:
Known quantity. Regional pilots are most definitely a mixed bag. Hell, some will hire you without an interview.
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Yeah, I get that. Look at what Mesa was doing a whole back. But after 5 years, you have to have made it through 5, sometimes 6 training cycles.
 
mshunter said:
Yeah, I get that. Look at what Mesa was doing a whole back. But after 5 years, you have to have made it through 5, sometimes 6 training cycles.
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I could train my Beagle-mix to fly an Airbus. But is he going to show up on time, stay out of the chief pilots office, represent the brand well, perform impeccable customer service and be a consensus builder, or just sit in the cockpit while the world crumbles and occasionally take off after a squirrel?
 
Derg said:
I could train my Beagle-mix to fly an Airbus. But is he going to show up on time, stay out of the chief pilots office, represent the brand well, perform impeccable customer service and be a consensus builder, or just sit in the cockpit while the world crumbles and occasionally take off after a squirrel?
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Your point?
 
Derg said:
I could train my Beagle-mix to fly an Airbus. But is he going to show up on time, stay out of the chief pilots office, represent the brand well, perform impeccable customer service and be a consensus builder, or just sit in the cockpit while the world crumbles and occasionally take off after a squirrel?
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They're already flying Delta flights. Until that changes, this argument is ludicrous.
 
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