Declare an Emergency! Please...

Vector4Food

Vector4Food

This job would be easier without all the airplanes
I gotta ask a question to those who are flying for a living.

Why is there such an aversion to declaring an emergency? I realize there is likely a mountain of paperwork involved, but there seems to be a trend these days where controllers basically have to beat an emergency declaration out of a flight crew.

Of course, we can assume an emergency situation on our own if required, but consider for one example the following recent scenario.

Biz-Jet at FL450, airplane is crossing two heavily congested tracks of aircraft, with no lateral separation with either (at least not any acceptable length of time for a controlled descent).

"Center N5XXXX, we're going to need to return to K***"

"N5XXXX, roger, are you declaring an emergency?"

"Negative not at this time"

"Ok, Standby"

At this point the controller needs to gather information about an acceptable return routing to this obscure airport since it's not an emergency, planes divert for company reasons all the time, no reason to suspect much else at this point... also the regular duties in the busy sector of moving airplanes, switching freq's handoffs all still have to happen, airplanes are calling about turbulence, requests etc...

1 Minute or less passes...

"N5XXXX fly heading 270 for now, maintain FL430"

"Ok... heading 270, and we'd like to request lower than 430"

"Roger, what is the nature of the diversion?"

"Well we're watching the co-pilots windscreen actually arcing and cracking at this time, we need to get lower"


Well now, in that 1 minute they are on top of one heavy track turning back into their faces, which required another vector to the airplane, five other heavies vectored clear, and finally got him through....

Point to the story... if you're in a situation like the one above just declare an emergency, if you do, you are now priority 1, everything will get out of your way, and we'll get you somewhere safe for the situation you're dealing with... in this specific example had an emergency been declared or even had they said they needed lower immediately a lot of trouble could have been involved, and also they would get to a safe altitude much quicker.

I realize a cracked windsheild is not always an emergency, but considering the pilots tone of voice during the second interaction in their mind they needed lower right now... if you can't get through because the radios jammed, dial up 7700, trust me you'll get our attention!

Rant over :)
 
Amen, can't tell you how many times I have had undeclared "emergencies" that wanted to be treated like one. Please do it then we can avoid the 20 questions from everyone we coordinate with "not an emergency but wants priority handling?"

If it's a bleepin emergency it's an emergency, urgent or distress same difference to us.
 
Emergencies are for sissies and incompetents, not REAL PILOTS.

Isn't that the unspoken lesson drilled into all of us?
 
Maybe an example will make sense with this.

There are times where you're so busy trying to figure out WTF is going on with the airplane that you're not inclined to declare an emergency. One time, we went down to what you would call essential power in a King Air. Lost the cabin, boots, cockpit lights, half the instruments and a bunch other stuff in ice and IMC while climbing through FL180. Is that an emergency? Of course it is. Did we declare right away? No, we were too busy trying to figure out what was going on with the aircraft. At the same time, we needed to turn and descend right away, which we requested. The controller denied our requests 2-3 times, even after we told them we didn't have boots anymore and were in ice, and that we lost our cabin and needed to descend.

The result? We declared in order to TELL the controller what we were going to do. Would we have declared if he had simply given us what we asked for? Probably, but it would have come later down the road once we had figured out what was going on with the plane. But the necessity to declare didn't come until we couldn't get what we needed from the controller.

Frankly, when something happens that requires a diversion, the conversation might go something like:

Captain: "Huh...that ain't right."
First Officer: "Nope, wanna descend?"
Captain: "Yeah, yeah let's do that."
First Officer: "Center we'd like FL430 and get a turn back to KXXX."
ATC: "Descend and maintain FL430, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Why's it doing that?"
First Officer: "Descend and maintain FL430, standby*click* I've got no idea."
Captain: "We have a checklist for that?"
First Officer: "Let me get it out."
ATC: "N12345, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Tell him to STFU while we work on this."
First Officer: "Stand by*click* Ok here we go, ahh...'abnormal windshield arcing checklist', deselect windshield heat #2"
ATC: "N12345?"
Captain: "#@$)%(*#)$(%#)$(%*!!!!!!!!!!!!"
First Officer: "We'll call you back center."
ATC: "N12345 do you wish to declare an emergency?"

So is that an emergency? I don't know, I think you've got to run the checklist first and figure out if you can solve the problem before you start declaring an emergency. It will, quite frankly, take a little bit of time to figure out exactly what you're dealing with before we can make a determination of whether we need to declare. If we were declaring emergencies every time we got the QRH out, we'd be declaring every couple of legs on some days.

Now on the other side of that, there are things that will be an emergency declaration right away. What those things are, and how they occur, and in what order, and with what severity, and whether they get better or worse all start to affect these decisions.

Or I guess it could be said really simply to say that most of this isn't very black and white. There ARE some things that are, without a doubt, an emergency declaration, but there are many other things that are more of a wait and see what's going on before you make any decisions kind of abnormals.
 
"Pan-Pan"
I've never used it but I'll admit that there have been times that I should have. "Oh...I'd like to return to the airport."

Funny thing is that I've sat there thinking before calling ATC, "should I say pan-pan? I've never heard anybody use pan-pan. Would he know what I'm talking about?"

I think I've just resolved to use "pan-pan" next time.
 
Douglas said:
"Pan-Pan"
I've never used it but I'll admit that there have been times that I should have. "Oh...I'd like to return to the airport."

Funny thing is that I've sat there thinking before calling ATC, "should I say pan-pan? I've never heard anybody use pan-pan. Would he know what I'm talking about?"

I think I've just resolved to use "pan-pan" next time.
Click to expand...

This is win!
 
jtrain609 said:
Maybe an example will make sense with this.

There are times where you're so busy trying to figure out WTF is going on with the airplane that you're not inclined to declare an emergency. One time, we went down to what you would call essential power in a King Air. Lost the cabin, boots, cockpit lights, half the instruments and a bunch other stuff in ice and IMC while climbing through FL180. Is that an emergency? Of course it is. Did we declare right away? No, we were too busy trying to figure out what was going on with the aircraft. At the same time, we needed to turn and descend right away, which we requested. The controller denied our requests 2-3 times, even after we told them we didn't have boots anymore and were in ice, and that we lost our cabin and needed to descend.

The result? We declared in order to TELL the controller what we were going to do. Would we have declared if he had simply given us what we asked for? Probably, but it would have come later down the road once we had figured out what was going on with the plane. But the necessity to declare didn't come until we couldn't get what we needed from the controller.

Frankly, when something happens that requires a diversion, the conversation might go something like:

Captain: "Huh...that ain't right."
First Officer: "Nope, wanna descend?"
Captain: "Yeah, yeah let's do that."
First Officer: "Center we'd like FL430 and get a turn back to KXXX."
ATC: "Descend and maintain FL430, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Why's it doing that?"
First Officer: "Descend and maintain FL430, standby*click* I've got no idea."
Captain: "We have a checklist for that?"
First Officer: "Let me get it out."
ATC: "N12345, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Tell him to STFU while we work on this."
First Officer: "Stand by*click* Ok here we go, ahh...'abnormal windshield arcing checklist', deselect windshield heat #2"
ATC: "N12345?"
Captain: "#@$)%(*#)$(%#)$(%*!!!!!!!!!!!!"
First Officer: "We'll call you back center."
ATC: "N12345 do you wish to declare an emergency?"

So is that an emergency? I don't know, I think you've got to run the checklist first and figure out if you can solve the problem before you start declaring an emergency. It will, quite frankly, take a little bit of time to figure out exactly what you're dealing with before we can make a determination of whether we need to declare. If we were declaring emergencies every time we got the QRH out, we'd be declaring every couple of legs on some days.

Now on the other side of that, there are things that will be an emergency declaration right away. What those things are, and how they occur, and in what order, and with what severity, and whether they get better or worse all start to affect these decisions.

Or I guess it could be said really simply to say that most of this isn't very black and white. There ARE some things that are, without a doubt, an emergency declaration, but there are many other things that are more of a wait and see what's going on before you make any decisions kind of abnormals.
Click to expand...


I understand where you're coming from but from a controllers standpoint I think a "we're declaring an emergency, please standby for details, while we figure this out" would have saved a lot of headaches.
It also gets you what ever you want to the best of our abilities without 20 questions if you tell us "we'll get back to you".


TFaudree_ERAU said:
Can emergencies be canceled?
Click to expand...

I don't see why they couldn't be if the emergency was determined not to exist.
 
First Officer: "Center we'd like FL430 and get a turn back to KXXX."
ATC: "Descend and maintain FL430, do you require assistance?"
Click to expand...

The jungle jet goes to 450!!!???

I agree that pan-pan is an intriguing possibility, but I suspect you'd still get whatever phone calls/paperwork problems that would attend a "mayday".
 
Douglas said:
"Pan-Pan"
I've never used it but I'll admit that there have been times that I should have. "Oh...I'd like to return to the airport."

Funny thing is that I've sat there thinking before calling ATC, "should I say pan-pan? I've never heard anybody use pan-pan. Would he know what I'm talking about?"

I think I've just resolved to use "pan-pan" next time.
Click to expand...

I have had a ton of emergencies, only one used "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" none ever "Pan, Pan, Pan". The one "Mayday" guy was probably 80 or so and very soft spoken. I think I turned to my instructor and said "WTF did he just say?" because I wasn't used to hearing it.


BTW: hope there isn't a next time for you.
 
jtrain609 said:
Maybe an example will make sense with this.

There are times where you're so busy trying to figure out WTF is going on with the airplane that you're not inclined to declare an emergency. One time, we went down to what you would call essential power in a King Air. Lost the cabin, boots, cockpit lights, half the instruments and a bunch other stuff in ice and IMC while climbing through FL180. Is that an emergency? Of course it is. Did we declare right away? No, we were too busy trying to figure out what was going on with the aircraft. At the same time, we needed to turn and descend right away, which we requested. The controller denied our requests 2-3 times, even after we told them we didn't have boots anymore and were in ice, and that we lost our cabin and needed to descend.

The result? We declared in order to TELL the controller what we were going to do. Would we have declared if he had simply given us what we asked for? Probably, but it would have come later down the road once we had figured out what was going on with the plane. But the necessity to declare didn't come until we couldn't get what we needed from the controller.

Frankly, when something happens that requires a diversion, the conversation might go something like:

Captain: "Huh...that ain't right."
First Officer: "Nope, wanna descend?"
Captain: "Yeah, yeah let's do that."
First Officer: "Center we'd like FL430 and get a turn back to KXXX."
ATC: "Descend and maintain FL430, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Why's it doing that?"
First Officer: "Descend and maintain FL430, standby*click* I've got no idea."
Captain: "We have a checklist for that?"
First Officer: "Let me get it out."
ATC: "N12345, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Tell him to STFU while we work on this."
First Officer: "Stand by*click* Ok here we go, ahh...'abnormal windshield arcing checklist', deselect windshield heat #2"
ATC: "N12345?"
Captain: "#@$)%(*#)$(%#)$(%*!!!!!!!!!!!!"
First Officer: "We'll call you back center."
ATC: "N12345 do you wish to declare an emergency?"

So is that an emergency? I don't know, I think you've got to run the checklist first and figure out if you can solve the problem before you start declaring an emergency. It will, quite frankly, take a little bit of time to figure out exactly what you're dealing with before we can make a determination of whether we need to declare. If we were declaring emergencies every time we got the QRH out, we'd be declaring every couple of legs on some days.

Now on the other side of that, there are things that will be an emergency declaration right away. What those things are, and how they occur, and in what order, and with what severity, and whether they get better or worse all start to affect these decisions.

Or I guess it could be said really simply to say that most of this isn't very black and white. There ARE some things that are, without a doubt, an emergency declaration, but there are many other things that are more of a wait and see what's going on before you make any decisions kind of abnormals.
Click to expand...


I'm going to go straight into second-guessing mode ('cause I know you can handle it :) ), and say that there is no way it should take 2-3 requests to get you to declare an emergency. Anytime you are in a situation where you are trying to sort out problems and aren't sure of the severity, but ARE sure you need *something* from ATC, it is past time to declare. If you don't have time to explain to them what is going on, or play the "souls on board, fuel remaining" game, then "standby" works just as well in their direction.

Just declare an emergency, THEN figure stuff out. If it MIGHT be something that needs an immediate descent or vectors to the nearest field, get that started FIRST, then work the checklist and the problem. Much better to call ATC back later and say "uh, nevermind - we were nervous nellies there for a minute", then to lose precious time when you actually don't have any extra.

Remember Swissair 111.
 
SteveC said:
I'm going to go straight into second-guessing mode ('cause I know you can handle it :-) ), and say that there is no way it should take 2-3 requests to get you to declare an emergency. Anytime you are in a situation where you are trying to sort out problems and aren't sure of the severity, but ARE sure you need *something* from ATC, it is past time to declare. If you don't have time to explain to them what is going on, or play the "souls on board, fuel remaining" game, then "standby" works just as well in their direction.

Just declare an emergency, THEN figure stuff out. If it MIGHT be something that needs an immediate descent or vectors to the nearest field, get that started FIRST, then work the checklist and the problem. Much better to call ATC back later and say "uh, nevermind - we were nervous nellies there for a minute", then to lose precious time when you actually don't have any extra.

Remember Swissair 111.
Click to expand...

Well Said.

Also if you declare an emergency it is a "get out of jail free" card so to speak. If ATC isn't giving you a descent, and YOU NEED IT!, you look at the TCAS and descend, nobody is getting in trouble, because you were an emergency.
 
jtrain609 said:
Maybe an example will make sense with this.

There are times where you're so busy trying to figure out WTF is going on with the airplane that you're not inclined to declare an emergency. One time, we went down to what you would call essential power in a King Air. Lost the cabin, boots, cockpit lights, half the instruments and a bunch other stuff in ice and IMC while climbing through FL180. Is that an emergency? Of course it is. Did we declare right away? No, we were too busy trying to figure out what was going on with the aircraft. At the same time, we needed to turn and descend right away, which we requested. The controller denied our requests 2-3 times, even after we told them we didn't have boots anymore and were in ice, and that we lost our cabin and needed to descend.

The result? We declared in order to TELL the controller what we were going to do. Would we have declared if he had simply given us what we asked for? Probably, but it would have come later down the road once we had figured out what was going on with the plane. But the necessity to declare didn't come until we couldn't get what we needed from the controller.

Frankly, when something happens that requires a diversion, the conversation might go something like:

Captain: "Huh...that ain't right."
First Officer: "Nope, wanna descend?"
Captain: "Yeah, yeah let's do that."
First Officer: "Center we'd like FL430 and get a turn back to KXXX."
ATC: "Descend and maintain FL430, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Why's it doing that?"
First Officer: "Descend and maintain FL430, standby*click* I've got no idea."
Captain: "We have a checklist for that?"
First Officer: "Let me get it out."
ATC: "N12345, do you require assistance?"
Captain: "Tell him to STFU while we work on this."
First Officer: "Stand by*click* Ok here we go, ahh...'abnormal windshield arcing checklist', deselect windshield heat #2"
ATC: "N12345?"
Captain: "#@$)%(*#)$(%#)$(%*!!!!!!!!!!!!"
First Officer: "We'll call you back center."
ATC: "N12345 do you wish to declare an emergency?"

So is that an emergency? I don't know, I think you've got to run the checklist first and figure out if you can solve the problem before you start declaring an emergency. It will, quite frankly, take a little bit of time to figure out exactly what you're dealing with before we can make a determination of whether we need to declare. If we were declaring emergencies every time we got the QRH out, we'd be declaring every couple of legs on some days.

Now on the other side of that, there are things that will be an emergency declaration right away. What those things are, and how they occur, and in what order, and with what severity, and whether they get better or worse all start to affect these decisions.

Or I guess it could be said really simply to say that most of this isn't very black and white. There ARE some things that are, without a doubt, an emergency declaration, but there are many other things that are more of a wait and see what's going on before you make any decisions kind of abnormals.
Click to expand...

Well put. Also, there is also the possibility that while something is going on in the cockpit, we're trying to figure out if it is truly an emergency or if one of us did something stupid and we don't want to declare if the matter can be resolved quickly. Yes, there is the paperwork factor and also maybe a worry that the FAA might start doing some uncomfortable questioning that could lead to who knows where. That said, I've declared a few times and never once had to fill out any paperwork.
 
I'll start declaring the E word more as soon as ATC stops giving me the "nature of emergency, souls on board, total fuel remaining, etc" quiz show immediately following every time I say it.
 
Rarely does one need to fill out paperwork or make phone calls after declaring an emergency.

Because the pilot doesn't declare really means little. ATC often declares an emergency and the pilot never knows it.

A dispatcher can declare an emergency for the pilot too. I've only see that happen once.
 
SteveC said:
I'm going to go straight into second-guessing mode ('cause I know you can handle it :) ), and say that there is no way it should take 2-3 requests to get you to declare an emergency. Anytime you are in a situation where you are trying to sort out problems and aren't sure of the severity, but ARE sure you need *something* from ATC, it is past time to declare. If you don't have time to explain to them what is going on, or play the "souls on board, fuel remaining" game, then "standby" works just as well in their direction.
Click to expand...

I disagree on the situation outlined above, I guess obviously because I was sitting there. We eventually did tell them" souls on board, fuel remaining, descending to 10,000', standby," but because we weren't on fire, the necessity to go whole hog, if you will, wasn't there.

Just declare an emergency, THEN figure stuff out. If it MIGHT be something that needs an immediate descent or vectors to the nearest field, get that started FIRST, then work the checklist and the problem. Much better to call ATC back later and say "uh, nevermind - we were nervous nellies there for a minute", then to lose precious time when you actually don't have any extra.

Remember Swissair 111.
Click to expand...

I think Swissair is a great example of when you DO need to go all the way, right away. Smoke in the cockpit is, to me, an immediate emergency descent, diversion and emergency declaration all within about 15 seconds. But let's be professionals, and know that there are times to declare right away, and a lot more times where having a measured response is very likely the best course of action. I get a little concerned when our initial reaction always goes to the "DECLARE AN EMERGENCY 10 SECONDS GO" side of the scale, because it says to me that we're not fully thinking through an issue. Or as I've always said to my students, if you need to react like greased lightning in order to save your butt, you're likely already dead; there are very few situations that can happen in an airplane that will result in your death unless you react immediately and in many situations, quick reactions without thinking through a situation will get you killed more often than winding the clock and figuring out exactly what's happening.

I guess I'll also follow this up with the old adage of "aviation, navigate, communicate." I think an emergency declaration comes down the line when dealing with most situations. In my view, and I think all this reflects this, you've got to go through a process with this stuff, and keying the mic comes nearly last. First you've got to identify IF you've got a problem, and then identify WHAT the problem is. Then you need to figure out IF you can fix the problem, and then determine that if you can, HOW you can fix it. At this point you've got a pretty good idea of the scope of what you're dealing with, and you can probably start talking with somebody outside the cockpit about what you need/want to do.

I do think that having an itchy trigger finger on declaring an emergency is a problem because you're getting ahead of yourself. Until you know the full scope of what you're dealing with, after winding the clock a bit, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by declaring right away. Maybe you want to descend first before doing anything else before trying to figure out what you're dealing with. Maybe you want to sit there for a minute to take in what's happening. Maybe you want to talk with the guy next to you about what they think. Maybe a bunch of things, but I think external communications come nearly last in all this.

I just think it's hard to see that from a controller standpoint, which I guess is what this whole conversation is about; that there's a bunch of stuff potentially going on, and talking with a controller, or declaring an emergency, can be low on your list of things to do.
 
fholbert said:
Rarely does one need to fill out paperwork or make phone calls after declaring an emergency.

Because the pilot doesn't declare really means little. ATC often declares an emergency and the pilot never knows it.

A dispatcher can declare an emergency for the pilot too. I've only see that happen once.
Click to expand...


I have had a disappointed United pilot tell me "my company says I have to declare an emergency". You would have thought someone pissed in his cheerios.

also on the "20 questions" complaint, sometimes the Supervisors make us get that info even if you just request special handling.

You want to fill out paperwork and get a ton of phone calls in this day and age, ask for a divert WITHOUT declaring. The security machine will be all over you like white on rice.
 
Lots of good replies, and I appreciate the side from the cockpit, after all Swissair 111 happened in my unit...

For what it's worth had Swissair 111 dumped and dove for the runway immediately, they would have lost control just about over the city of Halifax, there was no saving that airplane unfortunately...
 
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