Decent from FL350

[400A]

In my mind it is a required call. More than a couple of times I have gotten the PD to some altitude only to not start down for a while and when I did and made the call I quickly got a new higher altitude to descend to and that was usually 3 to 4k feet below my current altitude where the PD was from the high 30s to 11 or 10k.

 

[Bumblebee]

No offense man but if anyone said good job kiddo to me to my face I'd look them straight in the eye and tell them to f-off. It's disrespectful.

ok. It was a term of endearment, obviously misplaced. You can expect no further such sentiments from me.

 

[wheelsup]

My response was harsh but please treat your FO's with respect. We're adults. Not kids.

 

[Bumblebee]

My response was harsh but please treat your FO's with respect. We're adults. Not kids.

you seem to get worked up over small stuff.

I was giving you props, your response was harsh and unwarranted, and I do give my crew great respect. You are speaking out of turn on this subject.

We can take this to PM's or even a phone conversation, but I'm done in the public forum.

 

[BTAcola]

you seem to get worked up over small stuff.

I was giving you props, your response was harsh and unwarranted, and I do give my crew great respect. You are speaking out of turn on this subject.

We can take this to PM's or even a phone conversation, but I'm done in the public forum.

OK OFF TOPIC PEOPLE haha. SO far so good about the thread. What I think still stands. Yes.. I agree.. it is HIS SHIP... however, its a TWO CREW REQUIRED OP, so BOTH OF US have the responsibility to adhere to the safety and integrity of the flight, thats a given.

Now... Like I Said.. I have heard both ways being done. MY CA WANTS THIS CALL TO BE MADE.. AND I WILL DO IT EVERY TIME! NO questions asked, its how he wants it. Now, does it reduce safety by not doing it... some may say yes, some may so no.. Does it reduce safety BY DOING IT?... I can hardly see how it would.?

SO im going to error on the side of caution and agree with my CA and do it everytime.. im sure I might forget one day though, haha

 

[E_Dawg]

My response was harsh but please treat your FO's with respect. We're adults. Not kids.

I don't mean to step on anybody's toes here but allow me to simply say, I think there is a fair amount of miscommunication going on. Dale is one of the best captains and pilots around and has nothing but respect for his fellow crewmembers regardless of how many stripes are on their shoulder.

As for the original topic, I usually tell ATC when it's discretionary, but when it's an assigned crossing restriction I don't. I guess because a discretionary descent can occur anywhere, while a crossing restriction occurs at a specific point so there is less guessing on ATC's part. No real legal info to back that up, but it's worked in practice so far!

 

[wheelsup]

I don't mean to step on anybody's toes here but allow me to simply say, I think there is a fair amount of miscommunication going on. Dale is one of the best captains and pilots around and has nothing but respect for his fellow crewmembers regardless of how many stripes are on their shoulder.

That's great I read it wrong then. My mistake. I snapped about the kiddo comment, there are other ways to go about saying what I wanted to say. I apologize to Dale (if he is still here in this thread ).

 

[wheelsup]

OK OFF TOPIC PEOPLE haha. SO far so good about the thread. What I think still stands. Yes.. I agree.. it is HIS SHIP... however, its a TWO CREW REQUIRED OP, so BOTH OF US have the responsibility to adhere to the safety and integrity of the flight, thats a given.

Now... Like I Said.. I have heard both ways being done. MY CA WANTS THIS CALL TO BE MADE.. AND I WILL DO IT EVERY TIME! NO questions asked, its how he wants it. Now, does it reduce safety by not doing it... some may say yes, some may so no.. Does it reduce safety BY DOING IT?... I can hardly see how it would.?

SO im going to error on the side of caution and agree with my CA and do it everytime.. im sure I might forget one day though, haha

To go back on topic the way I look at CRM in this sort of situation is if what they are asking you to do doesn't hurt safety it shouldn't bother you the least bit to do it. If they won't take a shorter runway even if the #'s say you can do it why make a stink? Who cares? If they want to go around weather that really isn't that big of a deal does it remove any skin off your back? Nope! Just roll with it.

 

[Bumblebee]

That's great I read it wrong then. My mistake. I snapped about the kiddo comment, there are other ways to go about saying what I wanted to say. I apologize to Dale (if he is still here in this thread ).

no worries....thanks:beer:


..and let me add I appreciate someone so mature as to make a post like this

 

[wheelsup]

it's CRM mang

 

[Orange Anchor]

OK OFF TOPIC PEOPLE haha. SO far so good about the thread. What I think still stands. Yes.. I agree.. it is HIS SHIP... however, its a TWO CREW REQUIRED OP, so BOTH OF US have the responsibility to adhere to the safety and integrity of the flight, thats a given.

If anyone has to state "it is my ship" there are some CRM problems that need to be discussed more than calling out of an altitude.

And since the system relies on everyone knowing what is happening, calling out of an altitude will remind the controller of the clearance. The controller can, like pilots, occasionally forget.

 

[averyrm]

ATC has already told us to descend whenever we want (pilots discretion) down to our next cleared to altitude which is 11k feet. Keep in mind, as we learned back in Instrument learning/teaching days. One of the required radio calls is "ALTITUDE WHEN LEAVING ASSIGNED"- This makes perfect sense if we are leaving our assigned altitude WITHOUT being given permission., that is my understanding of it.

When told to descend and maintain 11 thousand and NOT given discretion, you're supposed to say, "Leaving FL250 descending 11 thousand." So if you're supposed to say it when immediately given permission, it stands to reason you're supposed to say it when given discretion too.

Saying "Leaving" lets ATC know they can use the altitude you've vacated.

 

[wheelsup]

If anyone has to state "it is my ship" there are some CRM problems that need to be discussed more than calling out of an altitude.

And since the system relies on everyone knowing what is happening, calling out of an altitude will remind the controller of the clearance. The controller can, like pilots, occasionally forget.

I think, if I may, what he was saying is he realizes the CA is in command and therefore will follow requests. Not that the CA had to state "I am in command, do this".

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

ATC had already giving him a specific request at pilot's discetion. but i dont really have an opinion, i say error on the side of safety unless it takes you 10 minutes to get your call in.

OK, so taking my quoted reference into consideration. You're level in cruise at FL350. ATC instructs you to descend to FL240, no pilots discretion involved; do it now. You read back "roger, vacating FL350 for FL240" or something along those lines and then pitch the airplane over to initiate the descent. You have complied with AIM 5-3-3 by advising that you are leaving your last assigned altitude.

On the other end of the spectrum, you're level at FL350 and given a pilots discretion descent to FL240. You read back "roger, descend at pilots discretion to maintain FL240". You have acknowledged your clearance, but you have not yet complied with AIM 5-3-3 by advising that you are leaving your last assigned altitude. AIM 5-3-3 doesn't care about when you are cleared to or intend to leave the altitude, but rather when you actually do so.

 

[Bumblebee]

OK, so taking my quoted reference into consideration. You're level in cruise at FL350. ATC instructs you to descend to FL240, no pilots discretion involved; do it now. You read back "roger, vacating FL350 for FL240" or something along those lines and then pitch the airplane over to initiate the descent. You have complied with AIM 5-3-3 by advising that you are leaving your last assigned altitude.

On the other end of the spectrum, you're level at FL350 and given a pilots discretion descent to FL240. You read back "roger, descend at pilots discretion to maintain FL240". You have acknowledged your clearance, but you have not yet complied with AIM 5-3-3 by advising that you are leaving your last assigned altitude. AIM 5-3-3 doesn't care about when you are cleared to or intend to leave the altitude, but rather when you actually do so.

I believe the interpretation is that when you accept the PD clearance, you WILL be vacating and that suffices. Lot's of grey in aviationirate:

 

[BTAcola]

I believe the interpretation is that when you accept the PD clearance, you WILL be vacating and that suffices. Lot's of grey in aviationirate:

Lots of grey, but makes the most sense so far. Now.. no the "his ship" comment, was meant in respect for the Captain logging PIC, not me the FO in the SIC position. Meaning, I am respecting the way he wants the aircraft to be operated in the way "he is used to" ....not the other way meaning if it was a safe or unsafe way haha.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

I got a PD clearance once, going into HOU Class B and descended a bit later without notifying ATC and the guy gave me flak about it. Since then, I have always notified ATC when I am leaving an assigned altitude,

 

[Gonzo]

From my airlines FM-1

5.3 Mandatory ATC Reports

The following reports will be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific
ATC request:

A. At All Times:

1) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly
assigned altitude or flight level.

 

[Tram]

Just because we are not demanded to re-report, I'd let them know I was out of 350 for 11..

However, I only do this about 45% of the time probably.. The rest of the time, I just let it rip..

 

[poser765]

ATC had already giving him a specific request at pilot's discetion. but i dont really have an opinion, i say error on the side of safety unless it takes you 10 minutes to get your call in.

I think this is another one of those you have to read into it a bit. The "specific request" is not the descent. The specific request would be, in my mind, a request to inform atc what is happening. Look at it as specific request to notify ATC.