Current or former students?

[Mr_Creepy]

I understood that the FBI dropped the case! Is that not so?

They haven't been around in a long time.

But ok - we'll drop it and see what happens later. Sorry to get upset! I have just seen that there are several sides to this story and a lot of things are being said that are questionable if not outright lies.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended you. They are not my friends really, I never did anything social with any of the Williams', but I wish someone like them would come along and open up another CRJ based school. I really enjoyed working there.

I wish I had the cash or financial backing to do it myself. I think the time is right.

 

[M_Roland]

Yeah, I feel real sorry for all those Williams who had to file bankruptcy. Especially the one who was getting over $200,000 to be a glorified bookkeeper; and the one who worked parttime as a storekeeper and made $100,000 a year; and the one who did a little work paying student apartment rentals out of student accounts and made $100,000 a year--except she didn't pay their March rent so the students had nowhere to live when the school closed on 2/27, since the Williams had all their living expense money.

Why did the Williams accept students' money ($60,000 to $80,000 per student) the same week they closed the school? They had to know they were going to close the school! Mrs. Williams even said so to a TV reporter. She said something like "We've seen this coming for some time, honey."

If their business was decreasing after 9/11, why did they increase their salaries instead of cutting them?

Why did most of the Williams family couples sell their homes and buy more expensive homes during the year before they closed the school--except the one family who bought more land adjacent to their exisiting home because it would be considered part of the basic home under bankruptcy? One of the couples just finished their new house a couple of weeks before the school closed. They even had new furniture delivered that late which they bought from a student pilot moonlighting at a furniture store! You do understand the Florida homestead law in regard to bankruptcy, don't you? They don't touch your home, so putting lots of bucks into the home makes sense if you know you're going to file bankruptcy.

The lawyers do NOT have any money from ATA. The ATA money has disappeared? I wonder where? Could it be in offshore accounts? I don't know where you got your information about lawyer retainers, but you are quite wrong. The students' lawyer was paid out of funds collected directly from the students. The Federal bankruptcy lawyer is conducting his case using some funds they seized that was a refund on an ATA insurance policy.

By the way, while you're feeling sorry for the Williams, spare a little sorrow for the ATA employee who could not have his liver transplant because ATA did not pay the last few months of employees' insurance premiums they were supposed to pay--so when the employee applied for COBRA, he was not eligible.

And you feel sorry for these people?

 

[M_Roland]

Re:Move On

It's pretty easy to move on when all you've lost is a few thousand dollars. However, if you are a young man, 33 years old, now owing nearly $90,000 for 4 months training that did not quite finish his private pilot's license, who has spent two months fruitlessly looking for a job in this depressed job market -- a job he wasn't supposed to have to look for -- he was promised that, for all this money, if he worked hard, which he did, he had a 97% chance to be a commercial pilot -- --- then, Mr. Tenney, it's not so easy to just move on.

If you think this only hurts the more than 400 student pilots who have banded together because they have had their money and their dreams stolen by the Williams, you're wrong. It also hurts every person who loves each of these 400 students. Not only has it financially devastated my son, if my husband and I try to help him, we are too old for our retirement funds to recover the loss.

Any why should any of us have to pay $90,000 for virtually nothing?

Tell you what, Mr. Tenney. You give us $90,000 and we'll move right on. Won't mention it again.

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Re:Move On

Well I have to say that you are trotting out all the lies I am talking about.

I've added up all the possible training programs you could have gotten and it is NO WHERE NEAR $90,000!

There were 4 students who joined the last week and two of them had arranged loans for the $55-60k range. They were obviously hit the hardest. But I know where that money went, it went to fuel bills. EAC got almost all of their fuel money, and still held on to the aircraft and took the money from any leaseback owners or new owners when they came to get the aircraft.

If you have paid $90k then you must have kept paying after the school shut down. Hey take a hint, STOP PAYING!

I am still baffled that one girl told the paper she was out $45k the week it shut down, out $60k a month later, and 5 months later she was out $75k. Me? I'd have quit paying money after the school shut down.

[/sarcasm]

You know another thing? I offered to complete the current RJ classes ground school for $150 a piece over the two weeks following the shutdown. Know how many took me up on it? NONE.

Then later on I hear that Paul C taught an RJ ground school at Avion for considerably more than that. And how many hours does Paul have in the CRJ? I'll give you a hint, it's a "round" number.

I recognize your name from the redtrainer.org. Yeah I remember you.

 

[hammer]

Re:Move On

Don't forget living expenses, John. I have a feeling that's where the students that are claiming they are owed greater than >$60K are coming up with the number. I'm not an expert on this since I paid out of pocket, but Key had a program where you could get additional funds to cover any/all of your living expenses while a student at ATA. For whatever reason, these funds had to go to ATA first who would then cut you a check for the amount. In most cases, this worked out however anyone that had funds dispersed during the last 10 days or so got absolutely screwed and never saw a dime of the funds that were meant 100% for personal expenses. IMHO, I'd say "stealing" is the right word to describe what happened to students like Rob N., how had $30,000 wired to ATA on the morning the school closed, only to never see a dime.

Bottom line here is that this whole mess was caused by questionable, unethical and hasty business practices brought fourth by an underqualified, power-hungry family looking to get rich off of a flight school and airline. Hundreds of potential pilots now have huge debts with nothing to show for it, employees lost paychecks, and above all, the Williams family have managed to single-handedly further discredit the public's perception of the already damaged flight training industry. This alone is enough when considering potential legal ramifications against involved parties for what happened with ATA and Discover Air.

John, I think if you just came out and said "yeah, the Williams screwed up and nobody is to blame but them," that this thread would end pretty quickly.

 

[172_Captain]

Fellow students and M Roland, this is NOT a courtroom and John Tenney is NOT a judge. I don't understand why you are pleading our case in a open public forum. We have nothing to prove to anyone reading this. Save it!

 

[AnotherWife]

[ QUOTE ]
Please accept my apologies if I have offended you. They are not my friends really, I never did anything social with any of the Williams', but I wish someone like them would come along and open up another CRJ based school. I really enjoyed working there.

I wish I had the cash or financial backing to do it myself. I think the time is right.


[/ QUOTE ]

John, I accept your apologies. I understand you base your opinions on what you believe happened at ATA; I base mine on what I believe happened there. In time, I think we'll all know for sure. Until then, I don't think a protracted debate on the subject benefits anyone.

People hurt by the ATA closure are very emotional about it because it's hard to swallow losing the kind of money we lost to these people. My husband was only at ATA three weeks before they closed up shop, but I do believe there were some very good instructors there. I truly hope that each of the instructors and students find a way to continue their path in this field.

Oh, and to the poor guy whose thread was hijaked here -- sorry

I don't know anything about this particular flight school. I guess the only advice I'd give you is don't pay for your training up front

 

[Eagle]

Re:Move On

[ QUOTE ]
John, I think if you just came out and said "yeah, the Williams screwed up and nobody is to blame but them," that this thread would end pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a protracted debate on the subject benefits anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awwwww come on people, I LOVE reading JT's replies. You are all evil because you are angry..

Bwahahahahah!

Please encourage him to spout on, it is a riot. !!

 

[M_Roland]

Re:Trotting Out Lies

I do not appreciate your calling me a liar. My son borrowed $80,000. $50,000 for training, $30,000 for living expenses. Actually he had no intention of using that much to live on. He knew that during the 1st two years as a commencial pilot, the pay is very poor and he might not be able to make the huge loan payments, so he borrowed enough to make the payments until his salary caught up with the size of the loan payments.

He had no idea that no one in the history of the school had ever graduated in the 1 year they advertised and it would certainly have taken the entire $30,000 living expenses if he had been there long enough to get through all the courses.

Where did $90,000 come from? Because, Mr. Tenney, Key Bank charged a 9% loan fee, so he immediately owed $87,200. Then they sent the money to ATA on Sept 13 even though he did not start school until Nov 4 and specifically told Key Bank NOT to send the money until he started school. Why? Because Key starts charging interest from the day they send money to ATA, and ATA got to collect interest on the money while it sat in their account. In addition, sending the money that early kept him from being able to use the "change your mind and return the money within 45 days" clause because the money was at the school more than 45 days before he got there.

His loan balance copied directly from the website:

Your principal balance is $90,678.57 as of September 12, 2003 (Not a Payoff Amount).

You should be more careful who you go around calling a liar.

You also should not try to talk as an expert on matters about which you do not have the inside track. I happen to know a great deal more than you do about exactly what has and has not happened. I am privy to lawyer and Bankruptcy Trustee communications to which you are not. I know what information has been turned over to the FBI. Much of it was information that I gathered in my research. I have researched the Williams' history of forming and dissolving companies all the way back to 1981.

You're surprised nobody took you up on your wonderful $150 offer? Where did you think they were going to get the money? The Williams have all their money.

 

[ready2fly]

Re:Trotting Out Lies

[ QUOTE ]
You also should not try to talk as an expert on matters about which you do not have the inside track.

[/ QUOTE ]
May as well try to break rocks with a Wiffle Ball bat, M_Roland.

He's not going to understand. Watch, you'll see.

(P.S. VERY sorry to hear about what happened to your son and all the rest of the ATA students. The Williams' are the most dispicable type of individuals on earth.)

R2F

 

[Mr_Creepy]

Re:Trotting Out Lies

I'm moving my response over to the ATA thread.

 

[IrishSheepdog]

Re:Trotting Out Lies

I was bored sitting around the house today before work and I just read this whole thread. It is sickening.

Tenney, how the hell can you defend the Williams? That is sad.

 

[Phil2016]

Re:Trotting Out Lies

Thanks for saying that Matt...I'm a new guy to jetcareers and just read everything as well and couldn't agree with you more. As someone who only had 3 1/2 weeks at ATA before they closed and my only exposure to the Williams family, other than the day of my orientation, being Scott boasting in the lobby about his new Mercedes or Lexus (don't remember which exactly)...I can't fathom how anyone could defend their actions. (Do the math...I arrived at ATA Feb. 3rd, doors locked Feb. 27th...Scott Williams purchased a very nice and expensive new car somewhere in the middle.) But what can you do?

9 months ago I didn't want anything to do with this industry after what the Williams family did to me and the rest of the ATA students. However, that undeniable urge to be in the sky instead of behind a desk is coming back...thanks Doug for having this website up and everyone else for posting and sharing. If only I knew about it a year ago before I went to ATA.

Phil C.