Current or former students?

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The sad thing is, I don't see HOW the Williams had to resort to CH 7 when they had all that money from the students.

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I think I covered this under the ATA thread but the Williams' had no money left, else they would have kept the business open. They had a huge stack of bills to pay, and even though they paid more than half, they are now "dead broke."

"All that money from the students."

Let's see, there were four new students since Jan 1, and they put up a total of $165,000 - much of which was in a housing fund which the student's lawyers "confiscated" to use as a "retainer."

The news article says the judge turned over the $107,000 in the Key Housing Fund to the student's attorneys for "safe keeping."

Don't make me laugh.
 
Even though this either belongs in the ATA forum or Squawk Box, I have to say something here....

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I think I covered this under the ATA thread but the Williams' had no money left, else they would have kept the business open. They had a huge stack of bills to pay, and even though they paid more than half, they are now "dead broke."

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Sounds to me like the did a very poor job of separating personal finance from business finance. If the school was going under (or Discover Air was dragging it under), let it go. I'm sure the students would have appreciated a little honesty and MAYBE some $$$ back instead of what they got.

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Let's see, there were four new students since Jan 1, and they put up a total of $165,000 - much of which was in a housing fund which the student's lawyers "confiscated" to use as a "retainer."

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I'd like to see where this info came from. I have several friends that were going there (and I considered it myself), and according to them new classes started every month until they closed the doors. Three of my friends have had their finances ruined, and at least one of them has given up an pilot career altogether. One was finished and waiting on an interview, and two were in Airstage II. Both of the Airstage II guys would at least like to know how their money was spent. As for me, I'm basically just angry that my friends were screwed over, but as we all know only lawyers make money in class action suites....
 
There were several people that did not get all that was promised to them. I know you may argue with me here, but there are also several that are really exaggerating how much they lost.

There was a large class in December, but things got really bad in Jan and Feb. The personal finances really had nothing to do with it, it was just the expense of running an operation like ATA with no new money coming in.

There was not enough flow through (pilots going to airlines) to generate a positive cash flow. This was a result in part of 9-11, and also in part of some other problems.

Several "agreements" that ATA had with airlines were ruined by students calling the airline directly and trying to make their own deals. Sometimes pilots can be their own worst enemies.

At any rate, the common belief that the Williams' "fleeced" a bunch of students and ran off with their money is just not true. The only group of people who is making out of this deal are the lawyers, and they are making out like bandits.
 
So the claims some have made that they signed up at ATA the week before the doors were closed are untrue then???
 
Not untrue, but greatly exaggerated. There were a few students who showed up that week.

For example, one young lady was interviewed right after the shutdown, claiming she had lost $45k. About a month later she was interviewed by the Orlando Slantinel and said she had $60k taken from her. A few months later another interview with the same rag and it was up to $75k!!!

My question, "Why is she still giving money to a closed company?"

Now this young lady DID receive her commercial multi with instrument rating. Admittedly she paid for more but she received something for her money.

Now I also heard and have not yet confirmed, that 3 new students borrowed about $60k each from Key Loans and signed up with ATA the monday before Black Thursday. They were claiming that the Williams' ran off with their money but it has now been disclosed that this money never got to the company, but in fact was part of the "escrow" money that the judge awarded to the lawyers.

They still have to pay the loan, which seems entirely not right.
 
I am a current student and I am not satisfied with the program.
The instructors are probably the most experienced airline pilots, however I am very displeased at the fact that the school lies all the time. Tab advertises their program to be 6 months from 0 time. I don't think anyone has been close to that number and 12 months is more of the average. Even after knowing this fact, I can still hearing recruiters flat out lie to interested students that they will be an airline FO in 6 months. I guess no flight school is perfect, but theres no need to lie about something that is very obvious among the students. Since, Tab can't get anyone hired after 250 flight hours, now they are offering a program for us to pay another 25k or so to build our flight time. That just ruined the whole purpose of me coming here. Couple more things, Tab advertises the program as upto 375 hours. That's with sim time, not total flight time, also when you get into a King Air and you are not satisfied with the program, you don't get your money back, so basically they can keep you as long as they want and treat you the way you want, because they know you have no way out.
 
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Not untrue, but greatly exaggerated. There were a few students who showed up that week.

One student was one too many.
 
John .... I gotta be honest and say that I have a problem with a lot of what you're saying about ATA. To me, some of what you're posting reads like the Williams are victims, students are con-artists, and the lawyers are the winners.

* If this was nobody's fault, how come Melissa Williams testified under oath that millions of dollars of student tuitions were sent directly to Discover Air to keep that operation running? Also - and although I don't remember the exact amount - why was it that the insurance premium for Discover Air (which was over $100,000) was paid for the month of March, after ATA was closed, using ATA funds? I don't believe the students had any sort of vested interest in the operations of Discover Air nor were they given any equity for what has now been disclosed was an operation that was being significantly funded by student tuitions.

* When deadbroke, most people don't drive luxury autos, build half million dollar houses in gated communities, have vacation homes on the beach, and take delivery of new Mercedes weeks before their business goes under. Likewise, struggling businesses don't usually pay their owner/executives six figure salaries, including Melissa's now confirmed quarter million income and Christine's (the housing coordinator) $100,000 income for 2002. FYI, at $100,000, Christime was the lowest paid member of the William's family.

* The Williams and ATA were forced into bankruptcy by the former students. It was "involuntarily" imposed on them by the court so that students could pursue legal opportunities against them.

* The attorney representing the ATA students was paid for by the ATA students in the form of a $100 check from each of us. He does not have access to the "living expenses" that were never received by students. That money was directly deposited into the ATA accounts and who knows where it ended up.

The above information is true. A lot of the other stuff out there is hearsay. One of the main reasons it is hearsay is because Jim, Ruth, Scott, Rob, Melissa, Christine, and Jeff packed their bags, closed the doors of ATA, and disappeared on February 27th, without so much as a post-it note left to explain what happened and why hundreds of students now had tens of thousands of dollars in debt with little or nothing to show for it.
 
You have a different set of facts than I have, but I know that the living expense funds were impounded by the judge and awarded to somebody's attorneys. I had been told it was the students attorneys.

Melissa was paid the sum total of not only her salary but Rob's too. Rob did not take pay for tax purposes. As for the other Williams' I don't know them well at all, but I know this - Rob and Melissa have suffered incredibly as a result of the business failure.

So Christine might have been the lowest paid of those who were paid! To my knowledge none of the brothers took paychecks, nor did dad.

What I am sick of is people perpetuating the outright lie that the Williams' ran off with a bunch of money. They didn't. There was no money! The creditors took it, and so did most of the employees, as pretty much everyone but contractors got paid the last day.

I don't deny your claims about Discover. That was a very poorly run operation and may indeed have been the prime cause for the business failure.

I repeat, the only group making money on this fiasco is the lawyers.

ATA had a shot at being something great if they could have found some staying power. The quality of instruction was far superior to any other school I have seen so far. Any time you get people like Dave Gwinn, Scott Sindelar and Jeff Froehlich teaching you about RJs you are doing pretty darn good. The combined total of RJ flight hours in that trio is well over 20,000 hrs.

And you are incorrect about disappearing without a "post it note" as you say. There was a large meeting for all employees and contractors in the big class room where David told us the story and what was happening. I think they did more than their attorneys advised them in fact! Consider that the doors were open all day Thursday and several students were able to get their personnel files. I've seen schools shut down before and you usually show up to find a padlocked door and no people.

That ScrewedbyATA.org website was a huge mistake if you ask me. It made many of you look like whining cry babys. It was not well thought out.

Also, certain people should not be allowed to talk to the press as the stories are now so conflicting that I doubt the students case will ever be heard, let alone won.

And yes, I lost a months pay, $2700 to be exact. That was some overtime too.

In summary, I am with you on the debt issue. It is sad and tragic that several students are now stuck with tons of thousands of dollars of debt. That part really sucks, too.

It was a lose - lose situation.
 
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You have a different set of facts than I have, but I know that the living expense funds were impounded by the judge and awarded to somebody's attorneys. I had been told it was the students attorneys.

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John, I don't know where you came by this information, but I can tell you unequivocally the students' attorneys did not receive any of this money.

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Melissa was paid the sum total of not only her salary but Rob's too. Rob did not take pay for tax purposes.

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks for this information. Perhaps we'll see them go to jail for theft and tax fraud.

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Rob and Melissa have suffered incredibly as a result of the business failure.

[/ QUOTE ] I say this with all sincerity I can muster -- GLAD TO HEAR IT! THESE PEOPLE ARE CROOKS AND DESERVE TO BE MISERABLE!!

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What I am sick of is people perpetuating the outright lie that the Williams' ran off with a bunch of money. They didn't. There was no money! The creditors took it, and so did most of the employees, as pretty much everyone but contractors got paid the last day.

[/ QUOTE ] John, this is simply not possible. The amount of money they took in the weeks before they shut the doors without a word to any of the students makes this not possible. Your previous statement regarding the small number of students who began in January and February is not accurate. I'm not calling you a liar here, just assuming that you just didn't realize how many students started.

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And you are incorrect about disappearing without a "post it note" as you say. There was a large meeting for all employees and contractors in the big class room where David told us the story and what was happening

[/ QUOTE ] So, you admit there was no notice to the students at all. And you don't find that pathetic?!?

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That ScrewedbyATA.org website was a huge mistake if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ] Nope, didn't ask you.

John, I have really lost a lot of respect for you. I can't believe you can actually defend what these crooks did.

Very disappointing to hear this from you.
 
If any of my facts are wrong, prove it!

Rob and Melissa are living in a 2br apt in ***(withheld)*** right now and will have their wages garnished for the next 3 lifetimes. I don't speak to any of the other family members but I hear things are pretty bad there. Sure like to know where all that MONEY is!!!

There is no tax fraud in having your wife be paid. Anyone who would say a thing like that is not thinking calmly and rationally.

It's time to drop the anger and move on. There is no undoing the damage that has been done, there is no money to recover, there is no getting the aztecs up and running again.

It is history and should be treated as such. It is also incredibly insensitive to think that the students were the only people who had their lives ruined.
 
***So Christine might have been the lowest paid of those who were paid! To my knowledge none of the brothers took paychecks, nor did dad.***

More than $10 million dollars was funneled from ATA to Discover Air including $3 million+ in outstanding debt at the time of closure. This is sworn grand jury testimony. The brothers got paychecks from Discover which was so heavily subsidized by student tuitions from ATA that it couldn't have existed without the flight school. I'd say that counts for a paycheck.

***What I am sick of is people perpetuating the outright lie that the Williams' ran off with a bunch of money. They didn't. There was no money! The creditors took it, and so did most of the employees, as pretty much everyone but contractors got paid the last day.
I don't deny your claims about Discover. That was a very poorly run operation and may indeed have been the prime cause for the business failure.***

So basically, they did run off with the $$, only instead of putting it on offshore accounts, they invested so much of it into a failed airline that had no bearing on the flight school operations that neither could remain afloat. Hey, they were the owners .... they need to fess up and take responsibility for what happened. NOBODY had more to do with ATA being gone than the Williams family. Nowhere in the literature was it made public to potential or currently enrolled students that their tuitions would be used to support Discover. It was poor and very questionable management decisions that caused both to go belly up. Plain and simple.

***ATA had a shot at being something great if they could have found some staying power. The quality of instruction was far superior to any other school I have seen so far. Any time you get people like Dave Gwinn, Scott Sindelar and Jeff Froehlich teaching you about RJs you are doing pretty darn good. The combined total of RJ flight hours in that trio is well over 20,000 hrs.***

Agree. Instructors and staff were great. Students were dedicated with diverse and well focuses personalities.

***And you are incorrect about disappearing without a "post it note" as you say. There was a large meeting for all employees and contractors in the big class room where David told us the story and what was happening. I think they did more than their attorneys advised them in fact! Consider that the doors were open all day Thursday and several students were able to get their personnel files. I've seen schools shut down before and you usually show up to find a padlocked door and no people.***

Students got no formal notificaiton. I hold the not so prestigious honor of flying the last flight and in fact landed the Aztec after the doors were locked to find students crying in the parking lot, mechanics urging me to take the Aztec to Umatilla and leave it there, and Ruth in her Cadillac telling the press that "that had seen this coming for a long time." I saw students show up after I landed, flight bag in hand, ready to go on their flight. Four students were to have checkrides the next day. Students found out either by word of mouth, by watching the news, or by showing up to find the gates locked. Very classy move.

***That ScrewedbyATA.org website was a huge mistake if you ask me. It made many of you look like whining cry babys. It was not well thought out.***

Agree some people put their foot in their mouth but given the circumstances, students as a whole were not going to simply pack their bags and head home. 95%+ of the students were not from Orlando .... uprooted their families, moved, locked into apartment leases or home mortgages.

***In summary, I am with you on the debt issue. It is sad and tragic that several students are now stuck with tons of thousands of dollars of debt. That part really sucks, too.***

I really hope you meant several HUNDRED students, not just several. Christi can give the exact number but I believe there were just under 400 enrolled students on 2/27 ... a few, maybe 30 (myself included), were at the end of the ASII program and had technically gotten the most out of their tuition payment. Most of the student body was in ASI including at least a dozen (not four) students that had started in February alone. Only a handful of students paid in cash. The rest paid in the form of a student loan and well over 300 are in a position where greater than $10,000 of training was not received.

***It was a lose - lose situation.***
Yeah, I agree on that one.
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There is no tax fraud in having your wife be paid. Anyone who would say a thing like that is not thinking calmly and rationally.

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John, it is fraud to have your wages paid to someone else "for tax purposes." You don't know what you're talking about. I'll defer to your knowledge and experience as a pilot; please don't try to play armchair lawyer. I am calmly and rationally telling you this, as an attorney.

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Rob and Melissa are living in a 2br apt in ***(withheld)***

[/ QUOTE ] Are there cockroaches? Please tell me there are cockroaches.

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will have their wages garnished for the next 3 lifetimes

[/ QUOTE ] Fancy that -- does make me feel a little better. Thanks.

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Sure like to know where all that MONEY is!!!


[/ QUOTE ] Agreed. Hopefully the FBI finds it.

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It is history and should be treated as such. It is also incredibly insensitive to think that the students were the only people who had their lives ruined.


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You know John, this is definitely not history yet. You lost a lousy -- what -- less than $3k? The students lost MILLIONS collectively. You don't seem to understand that the Williams family cannot simply walk away from this. If they have their lives ruined over this, well, I'm not going to shed a single tear for them.

They called the shots here. They ran this school into the ground. They lured students in, took their money, all the while FULLY KNOWLEDGEABLE they would never be able to deliver the training they accepted payment for.

The more you try to defend what they did the more ridiculous you appear. Please stop. It's disgusting.
 
AWife - I am horrifed at what you are saying! I'm trying to consider that you are angry and feel wronged, but your comments are evil.

You are wishing harm on another human being because of something that happened to you. This is also evil. So if Melissa and Rob have to live like paupers with no control of their ruined lives, this will make you happy? If so, I fear people like you!

Please control yourself in your posts. I should not have to remind an attorney to guard the tongue!!!! Are you active? On what bar?

It is not fraud to work for free and have your wife get paid higher.

If there was fraud it would have been acted on by now.

JH - it's lose lose and its over. Time to move on. I'm not getting my money and nobody else is either, because there aint none!
 
John, it useless defending those crooks, call me evil , but I would wish worse if I was in the same situation as the ex-ATA students....
 
Save the self-righteous speech, John. You just totally don't get it. You want to talk evil? Huh? The Williams family -- every last one of them who was involved with ATA -- are pure evil in my opinion. Am I glad to hear at least some of them are no longer living the high life? Hell, yes.

They're your friends. I get it. You will continue to defend them, even in light of what they did to completely innocent people. Get that, too. Unfortunately, you come off sounding as morally bankrupt as I believe them to be.

And, yes, I am a practicing attorney. Where I practice is none of your damn business.

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If there was fraud it would have been acted on by now.


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I predict there will be some lessons learned before this is all over, John.
 
here's hoping you learn a life lesson soon! Going around moping and venting anger will not help you any.

MOVE ON
 
Well with almost all of us now forced to pay back $200-600 a month in student loans for training we didn't end up getting, by my math, those of us that didn't have to file bankruptcy should be able to "move on" in about 15 years or so.
 
How about this, John -- let's finish this conversation once the FBI is done investigating your friends. Then we'll all know what's what. Once the FBI has decided to "MOVE ON" then I guess I will, too. But from what I understand, the FBI has not decided it's time to "MOVE ON."
 
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