CSEL (Initial) & Multi-Engine Add-On Checkride in Same Day???

[nycronnie23]

Hey Everyone! As I have been time building in a Cessna172 towards my Commercial Single Engine Land (CSEL) time requirements, I am just wondering if I can do my CSEL as my initial and then hop in the Piper Seminole for my Multi-Engine Add On in the same check ride/ same day? How would I go about this?


Thanks
Ron

 

[Chief Captain]

That's exactly how I did mine. I used the seminole to fulfil the complex requirement for the CSEL.

You'd need your CFI to talk to the DPE about it though. Not all FSDO's allow you to do it. S. FL will allow it, while N. FL FSDO doesn't.

 

[Websterpilot]

I also did both checkrides on the same day, which is fairly common here. Since you are familiar with the 172 I would talk to the examiner and see if you could do your initial commercial in the Seminole and then jump in the 172 for your single engine add-on. This is what I did and it saved me some money not having to rent a complex single. Basically, your initial checkride is the only one that requires a complex aircraft (for the landings.)

I'm not sure if you are instrument rated, but if you are, I would also try and fit in some approaches during your multi-engine checkride so that you can also add on multi instrument privileges all in the same day.

Just remember, 2 checkrides equals 2 fees if you go with a DE. So prepare yourself for a long and expensive day.

 

[nycronnie23]

Thanks for the responses! I currently have my Private Pilot & Instrument Rating in Cessna 172 Single-Engine Land

@ Chief-Captain-- Nice! Well I fly out of Farmingdale KFRG Republic Airport here in NY & just confirmed with my school, instructor and DPE that I can do it this way. Is there any time requirement in the multi? if i do it this way

@ Websterpilot--yes I have my instrument rating & just wondering cant I just do the CSEL in the 172 and then hop in the multi after to fulfill the complex aircraft requirements

 

[Websterpilot]

It might be possible, I'm just not 100% sure. I would think that doing it that way would complicate things, but if your school and DPE don't see an issue with it? I've just never seen it done that way; almost always multi-engine first then single-engine add-on. I would find it odd having both checkrides merged together in two different class' of aircraft. I could see it done that way if your initial was split between the 172 and another complex single.

However, I would definitely look into asking your CFI and the DPE if it would be possible doing some approaches so that your commercial multi privileges aren't limited to VFR. If I remember right, it only requires 3 approaches with one being single-engine. My DPE had me do an ILS, LOC and VOR-A approach. During the ILS approach he killed one of my engines outside of the FAF. You will most likely have a missed approach somewhere in there as well.

 

[Rotor2Wing]

I think only one approach(single engine ILS) is required to add the instrument to the MEL if you already hold the instrument rating.

 

[Websterpilot]

I think you are right Rotor, it's been a while.

 

[statusseeker1]

You need a complex single to complete the CSEL checkride. The only 172 that you can use for the whole ride is a Cutlass RG. The multi engine cannot fulfill the requirements of your CSEL because it is a different class. However, you can do both the CSEL and CMEL rides on the same day if you want. I did it that way. It is two completely different checkrides requiring two 8710s or IACRAs. Consult with your DPE.

 

[Rotor2Wing]

You need a complex single to complete the CSEL checkride. The only 172 that you can use for the whole ride is a Cutlass RG. The multi engine cannot fulfill the requirements of your CSEL because it is a different class. However, you can do both the CSEL and CMEL rides on the same day if you want. I did it that way. It is two completely different checkrides requiring two 8710s or IACRAs. Consult with your DPE.

I do not think thats true 100% of the time depending on DPE and FSDO. Like what Chief Captain said some will allow the multi to be used to do the landings for the complex portion of the ride. Just like you can use a multi for the complex training for the SEL commercial training. If you read the requirements for the SEL it says under the complex training "an airplane" not single engine or multi engine.

 

[Chief Captain]

CSEL w/ CMEL addon = cheap
CMEL w/ CSEL addon = expensive

The first option is cheap because all your XC and pic time will be done in the single. You just need 10hr of multi time and you'd have satisfied all the requirements.

On the big day, you go up in the single, then demonstrate a pattern in the multi. Once that's complete, you've shown your proficiency in complex airplanes, and you can go off to do your multi manoeuvres.

I never touched a complex single until I did my CFI. You will require 2 8710 forms though.

 

[rframe]

CSEL w/ CMEL addon = cheap
CMEL w/ CSEL addon = expensive

The first option is cheap because all your XC and pic time will be done in the single. You just need 10hr of multi time and you'd have satisfied all the requirements...

Where are you getting this 10 hour requirement? There's no training time requirement to add an additional class to a certificate 61.63(c)(4). You could get a CSEL and add a CMEL in an hour, lots of people do it in 3-5 hours at a quick 2-day multi add on program.

 

[Rotor2Wing]

Where are you getting this 10 hour requirement? There's no training time requirement to add an additional class to a certificate 61.63(c)(4). You could get a CSEL and add a CMEL in an hour, lots of people do it in 3-5 hours at a quick 2-day multi add on program.

He's talking about using the multi to meet the complex requirements for the SEL. You get the complex training and the multi training for the add-on at the same time. but it is still 2 check rides on paper.

 

[Roger Roger]

CSEL w/ CMEL addon = cheap
CMEL w/ CSEL addon = expensive

The first option is cheap because all your XC and pic time will be done in the single. You just need 10hr of multi time and you'd have satisfied all the requirements.

On the big day, you go up in the single, then demonstrate a pattern in the multi. Once that's complete, you've shown your proficiency in complex airplanes, and you can go off to do your multi manoeuvres.

I never touched a complex single until I did my CFI. You will require 2 8710 forms though.

I'm really not sure that that's legit. Pretty sure the PTS requires that for a given ride (say, CSEL) all aircraft used must be of the appropriate category and class.
Edit:found it. The PTS states pretty explicitly on page 9 that the aircraft provided by the applicant must be of the category, class, and type (if required) for the certificate or rating sought. Don't know how a DPE would get by that and allow you to use a multi for your complex maneuvers...

 

[rframe]

He's talking about using the multi to meet the complex requirements for the SEL. You get the complex training and the multi training for the add-on at the same time. but it is still 2 check rides on paper.

Ah ok, thanks. That makes more sense.

 

[Rotor2Wing]

I'm really not sure that that's legit. Pretty sure the PTS requires that for a given ride (say, CSEL) all aircraft used must be of the appropriate category and class.
Edit:found it. The PTS states pretty explicitly on page 9 that the aircraft provided by the applicant must be of the category, class, and type (if required) for the certificate or rating sought. Don't know how a DPE would get by that and allow you to use a multi for your complex maneuvers...

Yeah, I have read that too. Either way some FSDOs are allowing it. I would say that you could interpret it to say "if you provided a fixed gear SEL for the maneuvers and a MEL for the complex" you could do it. The definition listed for a complex on page 10 in(4.) says:


A complex landplane is

one having retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable

propeller or turbine-powered.

Since it doesn't say how many engines it has to have and you provided a SEL for the check ride you could do it. I guess thats why some FSDOs will allow it and some will not.

 

[Chief Captain]

I'm really not sure that that's legit. Pretty sure the PTS requires that for a given ride (say, CSEL) all aircraft used must be of the appropriate category and class.
Edit:found it. The PTS states pretty explicitly on page 9 that the aircraft provided by the applicant must be of the category, class, and type (if required) for the certificate or rating sought. Don't know how a DPE would get by that and allow you to use a multi for your complex maneuvers...

S. Florida FSDO interprets it to be legit. We do it every day down here. The OP is in NY, so that's why I told him to make inquiries first. I don't think the cost saving will be enough to justify travelling across the country to get it done.

It's pretty funny how people act shocked to hear that's how it's done down here. I was also taken aback when a N. Forida DPE told me that he couldn't do it when I tried to send one of my students to him.

 

[nycronnie23]

Hey Chief Captain! Could not agree more with you on "SEL w/ CMEL addon = cheap" and especially during a time where its so hard to get even a small loan for flying so doing everything out of pocket you try to minimize expenses. However, I discussed with instructors and other friends who are pilots around the farmingdale area that its just like south florida FSDO and I can do it that way because complex is one having retractable landing gear, flaps and controllable propeller or turbine powered and nothing about one or two engines like ROTOR2Wing stated.

I will keep you guys informed about how training towards check ride goes and thanks for all responses

 

[Roger Roger]

S. Florida FSDO interprets it to be legit. We do it every day down here. The OP is in NY, so that's why I told him to make inquiries first. I don't think the cost saving will be enough to justify travelling across the country to get it done.

It's pretty funny how people act shocked to hear that's how it's done down here. I was also taken aback when a N. Forida DPE told me that he couldn't do it when I tried to send one of my students to him.

Like I said, a literal reading of the PTS says that the aircraft provided for the practical test must be of the appropriate category and class. I'm shocked that ANY FSDO finds a multi engine land plane suitable for ANY portion of a commercial single engine practical test.

 

[jafra98]

The only way it seems possible is to combine the training before meeting the 250 hrs requirement, example get your multi training(complex). When you're about to meet the comercial hour requirement go out and practice the single complex airplane(lets say 5 hours at the most). The day of your checkride you'll get the CSEL first and then add the Multi............

 

[Chief Captain]

jafra98

That's pretty much how it's done.