Crossroads: Law School vs Flying Career

A friend just posted this on Facebook, and it seemed apropos. :)

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ATN_Pilot said:
And sometimes that meeting never happens. Be realistic, not passionate. I know that's not what people want to hear, though.
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Well, I won't disagree that it has not worked out for some. That said, I think that I know quite a few people in aviation who encountered significant adversity since my entire USAir class was furloughed for 8 years. Most of us started over and have succeeded again. I know quite a few of the year 2000 hires at UAL who have been on furlough more than they have worked at UAL and they seem to have done the same.

There can and will be bumps in the road, but those that are persistent ( and competent ) tend to do okay in the long run.



TP
 
But your definition of "succeeding" is a lot different than most people's, I would say. Most of us aren't willing to move halfway around the world just so we can keep flying airplanes. You probably consider a captain's seat at Qatar as a success. I wouldn't. Not that there's anything wrong with that job, it's just not something that I would be at all interested in doing.
 
As someone who has meandered through life collecting experiences, I will only tell you that I am qualified to tell you the truth based on experience.

DO THAT WHAT YOU ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT. WHATEVER THAT IS.
Understand too that EVERYTHING has some suck in it. Fighter pilots hate the collateral duties that come with being in a squadron. SEALs hate the BS political crap they endure on a daily basis while planning missions and working though the execution of a mission. The hours are long, the training rigorous and demanding and the time away from home frequent and drop of the hat. Routine training one afternoon could be followed with a C5 flight to Africa that evening. My point is that even the "coolest" and "sexiest" jobs have some suck in them.

I know some lawyers. Most (17 out of the 20 or so that I have asked) of them hate what they do, and only do it for the money and lifestyle. But, the 3 that love it, absolutely love it, and love going into court and battling. They get off on it. I ask people if that like what they do. I also ask them what the suckiest part of their job is.
Asked if they had to do it over, what they'd do instead, and it always goes back to that thing that really turns their crank, that they could make money at. Fishing, obviously, wasn't one of the things, for example. But one said it was being a teacher, or a coach. You're gonna spend a long time dead. Do the things that you love doing. Forget status and being cool. Most of those people that you're trying to impress don't give a crap about you anyways. And the ones who do will be proud of you either way that you go.
 
So, some really good perspectives here... A bit more info from my side; I actually spent a significant portion of my childhood in South Africa, moving between DC and Johannesburg roughly every 4 years due to my father's work arrangements. As a dual citizen, courtesy of my American mother and South African father, with a bizarre hybrid accent (F.W. de Klerk and Johnny Cash blend I've been told) relocating regularly is actually nothing new for me, and in some ways preferable. I'm quite fond of the States, but moving internally or abroad to advance my career wouldn't really be an issue.

As far as the opportunity cost of a law career vs. a pilot career is concerned, one really has to break it down by each individual field of law. Most public service attorneys or solo/small practice attorneys taking care of DUI's will max out at appreciably less than a CA at any Major/LCC and, based on my interactions with lawyers so far, despise every waking moment spent in the office (80 hours+ per week). While it's true that senior partners at major law firms rake in serious money, the chances of my gravitating towards commercial litigation or mergers and acquisitions is pretty low, and that's where the money (as well as cocaine and despair) is concentrated.

Envisaging myself as a brilliant criminal defense attorney is tempting, but a more realistic outlook on my prospects is rather sobering. I did well academically as an undergraduate, and with the help of well-intentioned professors and parents, ended up convincing myself that law school was the only way forward. Knowing what I do now, I think that pursuing a JD for the sake of having the degree would be like self flagellation for 3 years. Doable, but really the best option?

I don't have perfect information, and I obviously can't predict where each profession is going to be in 20 years time. Both fields are in pretty bad shape, but I think that many of you on this forum have proved that it is possible to make something of a seemingly hopeless situation through 9/11 and the 08 recession.

If one compares the career outcomes of a moderately successful attorney, an assistant account executive at a PR firm, or mid-level manager in some logistics company, I would say that those pilots who have persevered and made the step up to Majors/LCC (from an outsiders perspective at least) made a sound decision based on gut feel rather that the security of an adequate paycheck and will reap the rewards in years to come. Fortunately, there are plenty of people here who are better qualified than myself to speak to whether that's true or not.
 
CaptainUnderhill said:
Why not become a doctor instead?
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This is the type of response that I always find hilarious, and I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm going to use this post as a jumping off point.

Folks don't "just" go to law school, or medical school, or any graduate program. You don't wake up one day and say, "Hey, you know what sounds good? Law school! I think I'll apply and see if they're interested in my brilliance!"

First you have to have an undergraduate degree, which seems to be a problem in this industry.

Then you have to not only study for the LSAT for a few months, but then get through the marathon test. Think you'll destroy it and get in the 90th percentile? There's only a 10 percent chance of that happening no matter how smart you are, because EVERYONE taking the LSAT is smart.

Getting in is a year long process, to say nothing of GETTING THROUGH.

And medical school is even worse.

You have to have all the pre-requisites completed prior to application, you'll need a 4.0, a great MCAT score AND you'll likely need patient care experience. Right now medical schools are turning away FULLY QUALIFIED applicants, who would have no problems getting through the program and being successful. But because there are fewer slots than there are applicants, you can have a 4.0 from an top undergraduate program and a great MCAT score and still not get in.

And at Michigan's medical school, 5776 applied last year and the program admitted 177 of those. At Wayne State's medical school, it was 4,952 applications and 541 offers made.

You guys think the new ATP written requirements are challenging? We don't know what true academic challenge is in this industry.
 
jtrain609 said:
You guys think the new ATP written requirements are challenging? We don't know what true academic challenge is in this industry.
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Great post @jtrain609 . I've always been of the opinion that we need greater academic challenges in aviation. Not necessarily because it makes us better pilots but because we need greater barriers to entry into the business beyond job availability if we ever want to truly move the needle in our favor.
 
jtrain609 said:
This is the type of response that I always find hilarious, and I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm going to use this post as a jumping off point.

Folks don't "just" go to law school, or medical school, or any graduate program. You don't wake up one day and say, "Hey, you know what sounds good? Law school! I think I'll apply and see if they're interested in my brilliance!"

First you have to have an undergraduate degree, which seems to be a problem in this industry.

Then you have to not only study for the LSAT for a few months, but then get through the marathon test. Think you'll destroy it and get in the 90th percentile? There's only a 10 percent chance of that happening no matter how smart you are, because EVERYONE taking the LSAT is smart.

Getting in is a year long process, to say nothing of GETTING THROUGH.

And medical school is even worse.

You have to have all the pre-requisites completed prior to application, you'll need a 4.0, a great MCAT score AND you'll likely need patient care experience. Right now medical schools are turning away FULLY QUALIFIED applicants, who would have no problems getting through the program and being successful. But because there are fewer slots than there are applicants, you can have a 4.0 from an top undergraduate program and a great MCAT score and still not get in.

And at Michigan's medical school, 5776 applied last year and the program admitted 177 of those. At Wayne State's medical school, it was 4,952 applications and 541 offers made.

You guys think the new ATP written requirements are challenging? We don't know what true academic challenge is in this industry.
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Add to all of that the fact that doctors WORK THEIR ASSES OFF for the same pay as a major airline captain and HELL to the NO it isn't worth the cost or effort. That's assuming you are thinking of medicine because "hey doctors make a lot of money." If you have a passion for it you won't be on a pilot site considering medicine.

I watched my wife struggle through residency. Now I watch her work easily twice as hard as I do for less than double the money. The more senior instructors at Blue earn the same money she does. Junior line captains on the 320 definitely earn more.

Money isn't everything, but people seem to have a really really idealized view on what doctors earn. My brother in law earns well as a plastic surgeon, but he didn't finish residency until he was nearly 40. His lifetime earnings were severely hampered by the long residency.

If you're going to do any "professional" job, I think you definitely have to have a passion for it. You also have to understand that you create your happiness. Happiness doesn't just happen. You have to make it. I see far to many miserable MFers in our profession. I'm convinced they got into aviation for the wrong reasons.
 
CaptainUnderhill said:
Why not become a doctor instead?
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Spend 4 years in college studying a serious science degree (my wife has a degree in genetics). You will need at least a 3.7 or higher in a degree like biochemistry.

Study for and get a good grade on the MCAT.

Apply to at least a dozen med schools, preferably in state public schools since private med schools are hideously expensive.

Spend another 4 years at Med School, where the course work is so intense that working your way through is not an option. Try to keep student loans to a minimum.

During your 4th year, apply to and interview to 6-8 residency programs and rank them in your order of preference. Despite all this, you have no control over which residency program you match into.

Spend 3-7 years doing your residency depending on your specialty (the better paying specialties spend more time in training). After the 1st year you can finally start practicing medicine, which means you moonlight at a urgent care store on top of your 80 hour work week.

Finally graduate residency and start earning 150-200K/year. Still working 60-70 hours/week. Find out that the Government takes 30% of that back. Find out that Medicare reimbursements are being cut by 30%

Work for 10 years before burnout sets in.

Keep working for another 10 years to pay off student loans and the debt accumulated with the "Doctor" house, cars, and lifestyle.


I've walked this road with my wife who is a doctor. It is not a "back up plan".
 
Ya know, there are paths in aviation where you don't start out making 20k a year. Ive honestly never earned near that low and maybe I got lucky but I did a CFI-SIM-Charter route.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
Ya know, there are paths in aviation where you don't start out making 20k a year. Ive honestly never earned near that low and maybe I got lucky but I did a CFI-SIM-Charter route.
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You're also ugly, which means people feel bad for you and have paid you more.

It's the only answer to why you haven't dealt with poverty level wages :)
 
Just a guess but there are way fewer medical schools in the country than there are law schools. Medical schools require quite a bit of infrastructure, affiliated hospitals for rotations etc. What does a law school need? A law library? ;-)
 
I thought the guy suggesting become a doctor was joking ?!?

Sounds to me like you are a future law burnout if you go that route, at least right now.

Sounds like aviation might be a good fit for you. DON'T GO INTO DEBT DURING YOUR TRAINING. You need financial freedom should you change your mind or things not turn out as you'd hoped. This forum will be a very valuable resource.
 
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