Crossroads: Law School vs Flying Career

My Dad, Mom and sister are attorneys. I work for several law firms. Everyone that I know that works as an Attorney seems miserable. My parents more or less told me I wasn't allowed to go to law school. It's all about billable hours (even on the not for profit, public defender, DA, etc side), and you can never work enough. Imagine if pilots were allowed to fly as much as they could stand every day, with the idea that if they just flew a little bit more per week, they'd hit that dream job. My opinion is that, much like becoming a professional pilot, if you want to become an attorney you must be passionate about your goal. This doesn't mean you have to love lawyering. Here's a decent read about the subject, if you've spent much time at this site, you'll notice some familiar themes:

http://lawyerist.com/70883/dont-go-law-school-now/?utm_source=lawyerist_fp_topics
 
Run. Run away as fast as you can. I have been a lawyer for 15 years and it is a brutal profession and I do not see it improving. There are too many new grads., new law schools (which cost next to nothing to open, compared to a med school), outsourcing and just lousy lifestyle.

Thanks @jtrain for the Cooley reference. That sh-thole is part of the problem with this profession.
 
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@hook_dupin, apart from studying and flying, my main areas of involvement during college were corporate/government PR and communications (two internships). I can do some quantitative work too, but nothing beyond basic regression analysis and stats, neither of which I particularly enjoy. Still better than nothing though....

I'm not quite sure how I would mesh the 'soft' skills that I have from a liberal arts background with a flying career unless I studied further or acquire a couple of years in the work place. I have written a variety of articles for small, university-wide publications before, so there's also some potential there. Trying to see the glass as being half-full... at least I only just turned 23!
 
The best advice I can give you would be this: just remember that loving something doesn't mean that you would necessarily love doing it for a living.

I love flying. Always have, always will. Been obsessed with it since I was 4 years old, and I still look up whenever I hear a plane. I'm currently looking to buy a GA plane, and I'll probably put hours on it every weekend. But when that alarm goes off at 4am and I've got a 12 hour duty day ahead of me, the only thought in mind is "this sucks." And I'm one of those guys with one of the handful of "career jobs" that pays very well in this business. But I still don't think it's worth it. Not by a long shot.

So what you really need to do is not think about the flying, but the lifestyle and the path that your career will likely take to get to that "career job." Don't be in your 30s wishing you had realized earlier that the love of flying isn't enough to get you through another 30 years. At that point, you may have a wife and three kids, and changing careers won't be a viable option. There's an awful lot of guys I fly with who, when I tell them that I'm leaving aviation in a few months, say "damn, I wish I could do that." Don't be that guy. Now, to be fair, there are plenty of guys who also say "man, I can't imagine doing anything else for a living." You'll mostly see that type of guy posting here on JC, so it looks like it's unanimous in the industry when it's really not. But those guys definitely exist in big numbers, so maybe you're one of them. Just make sure to figure that out before taking the plunge.
 
@ATN_Pilot, I see your point, though it's a bit difficult to tell in advance whether you're suited to a Part 121 lifestyle or not. I have tried to research the career as best I can, but there's only so much you can glean from anecdotes on the internet, and like you said, it's subjective. Some love it, some hate it. Is there really any way to figure that out before taking the plunge?

Could I ask what exactly you think it is, that prompts people to become so jaded with the airline industry? I know that the starting pay is not commensurate with the time and money that one invests into training, and relationships with management have deteriorated, but is there something specific that drains the joy out of flying after a while? Is it monotony, unsociable hours, the volatility and uncertainty... or perhaps a combination of the above?

You seem to have reached the promised land, and still decided that the sacrifices aren't worth it. Food for thought... Thanks for your input.
 
Pessimism and misery can be choices.

I too know guys who go to work every day and are miserable. In the exact same job you'll find guys who go to work every day and are happy.

Since you mentioned South Africa think about the poor kid who was born in a township. He's likely got to scrape by every day just to survive, while there is someone in America with a good job complaining about an early wake-up alarm.

A little perspective helps from time to time.


TP
 
I think it's less the 121 environment, and more your personality. If you're a "glass is half empty" guy, 121 isn't for you. If you let stuff roll off your back AND love aviation, you'll be fine.
 
Far too simplistic a way of looking at it. It has nothing to do with attitude, pessimism or optimism, "perspective," or any other nebulous psychobabble. It's about what your priorities are.
 
Beech_Flyer said:
@ATN_Pilot, I see your point, though it's a bit difficult to tell in advance whether you're suited to a Part 121 lifestyle or not. I have tried to research the career as best I can, but there's only so much you can glean from anecdotes on the internet, and like you said, it's subjective. Some love it, some hate it. Is there really any way to figure that out before taking the plunge?

Could I ask what exactly you think it is, that prompts people to become so jaded with the airline industry? I know that the starting pay is not commensurate with the time and money that one invests into training, and relationships with management have deteriorated, but is there something specific that drains the joy out of flying after a while? Is it monotony, unsociable hours, the volatility and uncertainty... or perhaps a combination of the above?

You seem to have reached the promised land, and still decided that the sacrifices aren't worth it. Food for thought... Thanks for your input.
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Beech, like I said above, it's a matter of priorities. What matters to you most? Some guys value sleeping in their own bed every night. But some guys find that life boring, and constantly want to be somewhere new. Some guys like a routine, while other guys like every day to be different. This has nothing to do with attitude, it's about "different strokes for different folks." And you need to prioritize now so you don't realize later that you picked a certain profession for the wrong reasons.

In 121 aviation, here are some downsides to consider:

  • You will miss most holidays, birthdays, and major family events for a long time until you accrue seniority; and after you finally get that seniority at a regional, you leave for a major and start all over at the bottom
  • You will spend half of your life or more in hotels for a while, and eventually, after you get a lot of seniority, you can spend only about a third of your life in hotels.
  • Your career will be on the line every 12 or 6 months for your medical and for your checkride. The checkride is no big deal, because you're in control of that performance. The medical you can only control to a certain extent, though.
  • You will almost certainly be forced to spend at least part of your career living somewhere you don't want to live, or commuting a long distance so that you don't have to live there. A lawyer can work in any town in America. An airline pilot, not so much.
  • You'll work very long days. Many regional pilots drool at the prospect of having "only" a 12 hour duty day.
  • You'll spend a lot of time on the job that you aren't getting paid for. By the time the pay clock starts, you've already caught the employee bus or hotel shuttle for a 20 minute ride, gone through security, programmed the FMS, done the walk-around, and run checklists. You possibly had to deal with issues like unruly passengers, a gate agent arguing with the flight attendants, a ramp crew that screwed up the load plan, or some other nonsense. Finally, when the door closes and the brake is released, you start getting paid, after 90 minutes of unpaid work.
That's just a small sampling of the downsides. Basically, it's the same kind of list that you'll get from doctors, lawyers, engineers, executives, or any other type of professionals, just for different items. Every profession has its downsides. What matters is whether those downsides are big deals to you, or really not that big of an issue in light of the upsides. For me, the bad has come to outweigh the good. For you, it might be a different calculation. If you don't care about missing holidays, and commuting across the country is no big deal to you, then you'll probably be fine. But if missing your daughter's school play because you're stuck in the Des Moines Hampton Inn is a problem for you, then you might want to think about doing something else.
 
Recent Law school grad here who just passed the bar and I am looking for a permanent job still. Went to a Tier 2 school I guess, ranked in the low 60s high 50s but the best school in my region. Well I live in Miami, its no secret went to U-Miami law. I have under $100k debt though so that certainly was part of the reason going to law school. I also have no undergrad debt. I am also someone who loves aviation and for a long time wanted to be an airline pilot. I even got into Purdue's program. Honestly if I could do it over I would had gone to Purdue got my ratings and then gone to law school because Law schools could not care less what you major in.

You work in law so I really don't know to have to say the traditional make sure you like it, make sure you know what it is like to be an attorney. So I will just talk about how it is out there right now to get a job. LSAT and Law school class numbers are dropping and they are dropping FAST. Thankfully! There are still too many law grads and not enough jobs. Firms are starting to take advantage of the industry now like airlines did in the downturn. There was an application recently for a $17 an hour temp job for recent grads who are licensed attorneys! $17 an hour! And people will take it. The industry is in a major flux right now. The high paying jobs are not what 90% of students get, and unless you go to a top 14 law school many won't get a law job for a year or even longer if at all. The market is very very tough right now, especially for new attorneys. I am happy just to have a contract gig that pays around $50k. I know many in much worse situations.

As for aviation, I am not a professional pilot and just now I am starting to work on getting my PPL. But what I do know is that it is not a job, it is a lifestyle that you have to be OK with. Depending on where you work law can just be a job. I know people who work 40hours a week and nothing more, especially government jobs. On the other hand there are many attorneys who work 80hrs a week. Just like in aviation luck, timing and who know have a big play in where you end up.

The positive: Now is actually a really really good time to go to law school if you have a great GPA and great LSAT scores. LSAT scores which used to get you into say Emory Law now can get you into Northwestern or Georgetown and Gtown LSAT gets you into Columbia or Harvard. If you can get a scholarship to any decent school or especially a top 14 school it is even better. The student pool is less and less so people are getting into better law schools than they would have 5 years ago. If you can get a spot at a Top 14 school, especially a top 6 or a top 14 in Chicago and NYC you have a decent shot of getting that high paying job, or a very nice paying federal job. If you like academics a bit going to a top-14 school is a great way to get into the academic side of law which is also a very nice and low stress living. Of course those big firm, high paying jobs also entail you working 80-100 hours a week for a few years. But the $140k+ pay check does look nice.

Sum it up: I tell people you only go to law school if you want to become a lawyer. No other reason makes sense. Law school is completely different from college or anything else. You want to be confident that you will do well but only 20% can be in the top 20% so chances are you won't be. Also take into account the debt. IMO if you can go to law school will little to no debt then it is something to seriously consider even if you don't want to be a lawyer.

I will say this though. A JD does not open up a ton of doors. At least not early on in your career. Maybe later on but to start right now it is not easy. At least not coming from a non top-14 school. Do a lot of research about the schools, and statistics before you decide and ask questions. Ask questions to lawyers, ask questions on law school boards, ask questions to new grads/attorneys like myself. Ask ask ask.

Sometimes I regret not going to Purdue and going into flying, other times I don't even look back. I would love to get into the aviation industry someway though, and I am networking as much as I can to make it happen.

Consider your options carefully and look at all your options not just those two. If you love aviation there are tons of ways to get into it. There is only one way to get into law.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
Far too simplistic a way of looking at it. It has nothing to do with attitude, pessimism or optimism, "perspective," or any other nebulous psychobabble. It's about what your priorities are.
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The science backs me up, actually... And what are "priorities" other than what you choose to affect your attitude? If you choose to get pissed every time you miss a commute flight, you'll be far unhappier than the guy who rolls with it.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5784964
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Okay, I'm going to kick you square in the sack, and I expect you to just "roll with it." I'm sure it won't hurt at all, right? :rolleyes:

People who pretend to be positive about things that they don't like are demented.
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You miss the point. We have a BUNCH of people at Blue positively making themselves miserable because they feel they are behind industry average. If they would just accept where they are, and stop bïtching so much they might be actually happy.

There's a LOT of recent research on this topic. Google it.
 
Not a pro pilot but working on ratings... I've heard a lot that if you want to go 121 and are just starting training today, then you will miss the upcoming hiring wave or be on the back end of it leaving you on permanent reserve at a major or stuck at a regional.

Again, just something I heard. I wish it wasn't the truth if it is.

Anyone have any thoughts?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You miss the point. We have a BUNCH of people at Blue positively making themselves miserable because they feel they are behind industry average. If they would just accept where they are, and stop bïtching so much they might be actually happy.

There's a LOT of recent research on this topic. Google it.
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Research is for people who went to college, which is worthless, so get in line!!!
 
jtrain609 said:
Research is for people who went to college, which is worthless, so get in line!!!
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Lol. Well, I found it interesting and even helpful. Some people are just gonna be miserable SOBs no matter what they do, but someone might actually change their outlook by doing a little research into the topic.
 
Like I said, people who live in a fantasy world where crappy stuff makes them happy are demented. But if that's what you want to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to simply avoid the crappy stuff. How silly of me. :rolleyes:
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Like I said, people who live in a fantasy world where crappy stuff makes them happy are demented. But if that's what you want to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to simply avoid the crappy stuff. How silly of me. :rolleyes:
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I don't think he means that missing a commute should make you happy, but there's no reason to lose your crap either.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Like I said, people who live in a fantasy world where crappy stuff makes them happy are demented. But if that's what you want to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to simply avoid the crappy stuff. How silly of me. :rolleyes:
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Missing the point, Mr. Condescending Rolly Eyes. If you'd READ the research you might comprehend what I'm saying.

Takes a lotta guts to be condescending when you're on the ignorant side of the argument. Well, it could just take ignorance, I suppose.
 
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