CRJ V1 cuts !

tcco94 said:
Don't expect your IOE to be tons of ILS's....mine consisted of arcs, holds, VOR, GPS, LOC, LOC BC approaches. Only did ILS approaches into bigger terminal airports.

Of course on the line might be different.
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At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
Click to expand...
Hashtag goals.
 
tcco94 said:
Don't expect your IOE to be tons of ILS's....mine consisted of arcs, holds, VOR, GPS, LOC, LOC BC approaches. Only did ILS approaches into bigger terminal airports.

Of course on the line might be different.
Click to expand...

My IOE was mostly visual approaches. A couple ILS approaches including a CAT II but mostly visuals. Oh and lots of holding waiting for King Air drivers to cancel their IFR flight plans after landing.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
Click to expand...

We have the IAN that makes any approach look like an ILS, but it's only on the 747-8. Would be pretty cool if everyone knew how to use it!
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
Click to expand...
That stuff is too fancy for the CRJ to handle:)
 
Funny that the conversation evolved into descent planning, as I'm in the middle of IOE and having a small amount of trouble with it. I did want to clarify, when I said ILS most of the time is that we always dial it in if available not necessarily fly the ILS.

So, long story short my troubles are centered around just a lack of experience based on talks with IOE captains. I'm one of those guys that had the bare minimum requirements and was previously a VFR helicopter guy. That said though, I still need to figure this out in XXX hours.... since everyone was so helpful with the V1 cuts (I got them down to PRO level by the way!) I thought I'd ask for a little help here.

First all I'm not the best with mental math. I'm going to make up some scenarios while I'm at home and just work through them. Before I do that though I wanted to make sure I practice correctly which is why I'm here. With my lack of experience with STARS and such - didn't fly many of those in the old Cessna...- I sometimes get mixed up on the way controllers say stuff because as we all know it isn't always done by the book.

Making sure I got this straight -
  • the only "proper way" to be put on the star is "Descend Via" ?
  • lateral guidance always applies unless they vector you off
  • speeds always apply unless they say otherwise
  • crossing restrictions always apply unless cleared otherwise
So I feel like I'm kind of stuck in this spot where its you got what the controller clears you, you got what the airplane is capable of, you got what the company wants (fuel efficient) and then you got what the captain of the day likes.... haha ! I'm still figuring out what the plane is capable of, different ways you can get clearances revolving around a STAR and just being smooth.

Thanks for any tips and advice, trying to keep all the different rules and procedures can overwhelm you sometimes when you just don't have a lot of experience. I'm rereading all the company literature and FAA Instrument books but I feel like I'm kind of wandering around in the dark.

EDIT -
Found this - https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/terminal/standard-terminal-arrival

think its pretty helpful.
 
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PhilosopherPilot said:
At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
Click to expand...


Wait, jetBlue can't do LOC approaches?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Oh ok, wow. But I guess that's where the future is headed anyway. We can do LOC approaches, it's flown in LOC / FPA.
Click to expand...

That was legal on the bus prior to the change in 2015. But we did a system-wide analysis and most places wouldn't be negatively impacted by the change. Very few planes have been forced to divert as a result, and it's far safer.
 
This is My Screen Name said:
Funny that the conversation evolved into descent planning, as I'm in the middle of IOE and having a small amount of trouble with it. I did want to clarify, when I said ILS most of the time is that we always dial it in if available not necessarily fly the ILS.

So, long story short my troubles are centered around just a lack of experience based on talks with IOE captains. I'm one of those guys that had the bare minimum requirements and was previously a VFR helicopter guy. That said though, I still need to figure this out in XXX hours.... since everyone was so helpful with the V1 cuts (I got them down to PRO level by the way!) I thought I'd ask for a little help here.

First all I'm not the best with mental math. I'm going to make up some scenarios while I'm at home and just work through them. Before I do that though I wanted to make sure I practice correctly which is why I'm here. With my lack of experience with STARS and such - didn't fly many of those in the old Cessna...- I sometimes get mixed up on the way controllers say stuff because as we all know it isn't always done by the book.

Making sure I got this straight -
  • the only "proper way" to be put on the star is "Descend Via" ?
  • lateral guidance always applies unless they vector you off
  • speeds always apply unless they say otherwise
  • crossing restrictions always apply unless cleared otherwise
So I feel like I'm kind of stuck in this spot where its you got what the controller clears you, you got what the airplane is capable of, you got what the company wants (fuel efficient) and then you got what the captain of the day likes.... haha ! I'm still figuring out what the plane is capable of, different ways you can get clearances revolving around a STAR and just being smooth.

Thanks for any tips and advice, trying to keep all the different rules and procedures can overwhelm you sometimes when you just don't have a lot of experience. I'm rereading all the company literature and FAA Instrument books but I feel like I'm kind of wandering around in the dark.

EDIT -
Found this - https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/terminal/standard-terminal-arrival

think its pretty helpful.
Click to expand...

There are many ways to plan a descent. I'm sure others will chime in, and you can pick a method that works for you.

My method is figuring out how much time I have to get to the fix, and then how quickly I need to descend to make my altitude in time.

I turn my groundspeed into miles per minute. For example, if I'm doing 480 groundspeed that's 6 miles per minute. If the fix is 60 miles away, I have 10 minutes until I get there. Now I know I have 10 minutes to make my descent. If I need to lose 20,000 feet, That's a 2,000 foot per minute descent.

Again, to simplify, I figure out how much time I have to descend, and then what descent rate I need to get there in time.




For the STARs you are correct on lateral and speed, but I'm not sure you've got it fully on the altitudes.

"Descend Via" means comply with all altitudes and speeds on the STAR
"Descend via the STAR except maintain 10,000" means comply with all altitude restrictions on the STAR but also do not go below 10,000.
"Descend and Maintain" means you may disregard altitudes on the STAR (but it's still a good idea to stay close) but must follow speeds.
ATC can also completely modify the SID and just say "Cross [fix name] at 12,000" and this means you can disregard all prior altitudes on the STAR.

Complicated? Absolutely. For a little deeper knowledge: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...00/afs470/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf
 
This is My Screen Name said:
Great FAA link, thank you

Shouldn't that be 8 miles per minute or am I doing the math wrong ?
Click to expand...
You are correct. The concept still applies, though. That is pretty much the way I do it. Also, the CRJ has the "banana bar" which is a great tool to use. You still have to make sure you will make the crossing restrictions but it helps so you don't get in a jam for the final hard altitude.
 
Shoot... we get VPA to destination, vertical speed to Destination, leg by leg FPA on arrivals, the "banana bar" and all that jazz...

As long as the fancy machine works, it's really hard to get behind.

Otherwise, similar GS/time calculations above. Generally I will add 10% to the calculated FPM to allow for AP/FD capture. Sometimes when we get slammed by ATC, capture may initiate more than 1000 prior.
 
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