CRJ V1 cuts !

[BlueMoon]

When I was an intern back in the early 2000's (wow I'm starting to feel a little old) I got a couple sim lessons with an instructor. The first engine failure on T/O he did, he failed the engine at Vmcg (CRJ is around 90kts I think) and just had me use the rudder to keep it on centerline to get the feel for the rudder inputs until we got to Vr and then we rotated. If you are having trouble with rudder and keeping it straight it might be an exercise worth asking about.

The problem with rotating and not being close to coordinated is it will induce a bank right off the runway and then the pilots first tendency is to use aileron to correct it, which kills performance (spoilers come up, more drag) and I have seen (and early on in my training did it myself) some large bank oscillations as pilots over correct with aileron.

So yes you don't want to wait 10 seconds to rotate as your performance numbers aren't predicated on that, but if you yank the plane off right at Vr and are all crooked, you will kill your performance also, invalidating your performance numbers.

 

[Gorsoon]

I've had V1 cuts where the the failure doesn't occur until rotation (nose wheel off) on a /6/6/6 low vis take off in a dash 8, the trick is to just stop the yaw and ensuing roll, not to try get back to a center-line that you can't see, Just stop the turn with as much rudder as it takes, after the directional control is under control, then worry about the pitch, there is no reason to rotate unless runway lights start to turn red, once off the ground you will need to apply more of the same rudder to maintain heading and a wings level attitude, because of a loss of the tire friction that was helping you stay straight, then fine tune the rudder and pitch to the director, or raw pitch as necessary. Once this is done, calm down and mentally access the EFP, then make sure you are flying it. Clean up on schedule, trim out the rudder and ailerons.

1, stop yaw and turn moments
2, maintain directional control only
3, pitch for climb and fine tune.
4, Relax.

 

[BobDDuck]

If you are having trouble with V1 cuts in the -200, ask your instructor if you can do a few while you sit on your hands.
V1 cuts are all about rudder and maintaining directional control.

The CRJ2 will, with no input from the pilot and a proper stab trim setting for the weight and CG, rotate on it's own, right around VR. It will be a much slower rotation than is recommended, but it will happen. Sometimes, letting the plane do it's own thing for a few V1 cuts can give a guy a pretty good sense of what is needed as far as rudder control.

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Thanks all, much appreciated. I got it all figured out today and did well on the V1 cuts.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Smoke cigarette until .....
Smoke another cigarette....

You're one of those vaping CA aren't you???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AAPalmTree]

V1 is decision speed. You have decided you are going to fly. You haven't decided when you're going to fly.

-maintain centerline. Then fly.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

May we explore this rotation issue further? Obviously, an unnatural yanking of the aircraft off the ground is undesirable, regardless of engine failure. And as several posts have noted here, stabilizing yaw with the assistance of visual cues is helpful before climbing into the clouds.

However, aircraft performance calculations are based on the aircraft rotating at Vr. On the CRJ, that speed is often very near or at V1. I would argue that it is nearly impossible NOT to be in the rotation as the aircraft begins the yaw towards the failed engine if we are flying the profile as specified, which requires rotating at Vr, not some arbitrary higher speed.

Sure, many airports offer plenty of margin, so being a little fast is probably not a problem in reality. But I would also argue that not rotating at the specified rotation rate at Vr is similar to deciding to discontinue a takeoff above V1; both scenarios invalidate planned data and could compromise (or eliminate) safety margins (including obstacle clearance on the climb).

So, the lessons here seem to be:
(1) Fly the profile.
(2) Rotate at Vr, but don't over-rotate or accelerate the rotation rate.
(3) Concentrate on maintaining directional control, especially while visual references are present.

Does that sound correct?

You have fun with that...

 

[🦈💜]

You're one of those vaping CA aren't you???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had never heard of this until a friend mentioned it a few weeks ago.

If I ever had the other pilot start vaping in the cockpit, I'd have my mask on and be asking if they were ready for the "Smoke in the cockpit" QRC most ASAP... in a manner of speaking.

-Fox

 

[AAPalmTree]

Don't be in a hurry to yank the nose up right at "rotate".

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

You have fun with that...

I have been flying the CRJ for 10 years, and I have consistently had success rotating at Vr per the recommended profile. The problems, in my observation, come in rotating hastily --- becoming over-excited by the engine failure and trying to rotate more quickly than normal while struggling with directional control problems. My concern in writing the initial post was not in diminishing the need to maintain directional control but rather an apparent disregard for the importance of Vr.

Per the Airplane Flying Handbook:
"The objective is to initiate the rotation to takeoff pitch attitude exactly at VR so that the airplane accelerates through VLOF and attains V2 speed at 35 feet AGL. [. . .] A late rotation [. . .] results in a longer takeoff roll, exceeding V2 speed, and a takeoff and climb path below the predicted path. [. . .] In training, it is common for the pilot to overshoot VR and then overshoot V2 because the pilot not flying calls for rotation at or just past VR. [. . .] The airplane then leaves the ground at or above V2. The excess airspeed may be of little concern on a normal takeoff, but a delayed rotation can be critical when runway length or obstacle clearance is limited." (p. 15-24)

Since I had noted a consistent theme in delaying rotation after an engine failure, I wanted to extend the discussion by bringing in the importance of Vr from a regulatory and practical standpoint. I do concur that directional control is paramount, for an out-of-control aircraft is undesirable. But providing suggestions for delaying rotation without a discussion of Vr seemed unwise as well --- hence my initial questions and desire to draw out additional clarifying details.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You're one of those vaping CA aren't you???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HELL no.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I have been flying the CRJ for 10 years, and I have consistently had success rotating at Vr per the recommended profile. The problems, in my observation, come in rotating hastily --- becoming over-excited by the engine failure and trying to rotate more quickly than normal while struggling with directional control problems. My concern in writing the initial post was not in diminishing the need to maintain directional control but rather an apparent disregard for the importance of Vr.

Per the Airplane Flying Handbook:
"The objective is to initiate the rotation to takeoff pitch attitude exactly at VR so that the airplane accelerates through VLOF and attains V2 speed at 35 feet AGL. [. . .] A late rotation [. . .] results in a longer takeoff roll, exceeding V2 speed, and a takeoff and climb path below the predicted path. [. . .] In training, it is common for the pilot to overshoot VR and then overshoot V2 because the pilot not flying calls for rotation at or just past VR. [. . .] The airplane then leaves the ground at or above V2. The excess airspeed may be of little concern on a normal takeoff, but a delayed rotation can be critical when runway length or obstacle clearance is limited." (p. 15-24)

Since I had noted a consistent theme in delaying rotation after an engine failure, I wanted to extend the discussion by bringing in the importance of Vr from a regulatory and practical standpoint. I do concur that directional control is paramount, for an out-of-control aircraft is undesirable. But providing suggestions for delaying rotation without a discussion of Vr seemed unwise as well --- hence my initial questions and desire to draw out additional clarifying details.

Select "training" in the APG Options menu; You'll be good.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Since I had noted a consistent theme in delaying rotation after an engine failure, I wanted to extend the discussion by bringing in the importance of Vr from a regulatory and practical standpoint. I do concur that directional control is paramount, for an out-of-control aircraft is undesirable. But providing suggestions for delaying rotation without a discussion of Vr seemed unwise as well --- hence my initial questions and desire to draw out additional clarifying details.

Uh:

It's a good point, but aircraft control is primary. Once OP gets the stop-the-yaw part down, then we can finesse the rotation-at-Vr part. Rotation at Vr does you no good if there's an ensuing snaproll and sound of bagpipes.

I'm talking about how to learn how to do this.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I've had V1 cuts where the the failure doesn't occur until rotation (nose wheel off) on a /6/6/6 low vis take off in a dash 8, the trick is to just stop the yaw and ensuing roll, not to try get back to a center-line that you can't see, Just stop the turn with as much rudder as it takes, after the directional control is under control, then worry about the pitch, there is no reason to rotate unless runway lights start to turn red, once off the ground you will need to apply more of the same rudder to maintain heading and a wings level attitude, because of a loss of the tire friction that was helping you stay straight, then fine tune the rudder and pitch to the director, or raw pitch as necessary. Once this is done, calm down and mentally access the EFP, then make sure you are flying it. Clean up on schedule, trim out the rudder and ailerons.

1, stop yaw and turn moments
2, maintain directional control only
3, pitch for climb and fine tune.
4, Relax.

One thing that I don't like about my employer's procedures, incidentally, is that a deceleration to V2, if the engine quits above V2, is called for; I'd rather be V2 ≤ airspeed ≤ V2+10 KIAS than try to decelerate to exactly V2, obstacle clearance notwithstanding. (Our normal two-engine climbout is
"minimum" V2+20, so if you "fly the profile" you'll find yourself well through V2 anyway when one dies at 400'.)

#annoyed

 

[jtrain609]

I have been flying the CRJ for 10 years, and I have consistently had success rotating at Vr per the recommended profile. The problems, in my observation, come in rotating hastily --- becoming over-excited by the engine failure and trying to rotate more quickly than normal while struggling with directional control problems. My concern in writing the initial post was not in diminishing the need to maintain directional control but rather an apparent disregard for the importance of Vr.

Per the Airplane Flying Handbook:
"The objective is to initiate the rotation to takeoff pitch attitude exactly at VR so that the airplane accelerates through VLOF and attains V2 speed at 35 feet AGL. [. . .] A late rotation [. . .] results in a longer takeoff roll, exceeding V2 speed, and a takeoff and climb path below the predicted path. [. . .] In training, it is common for the pilot to overshoot VR and then overshoot V2 because the pilot not flying calls for rotation at or just past VR. [. . .] The airplane then leaves the ground at or above V2. The excess airspeed may be of little concern on a normal takeoff, but a delayed rotation can be critical when runway length or obstacle clearance is limited." (p. 15-24)

Since I had noted a consistent theme in delaying rotation after an engine failure, I wanted to extend the discussion by bringing in the importance of Vr from a regulatory and practical standpoint. I do concur that directional control is paramount, for an out-of-control aircraft is undesirable. But providing suggestions for delaying rotation without a discussion of Vr seemed unwise as well --- hence my initial questions and desire to draw out additional clarifying details.

Do you work at ExpressJet?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Don't overthink this.

Do whatever it takes to keep the airplane straight (not necessarily to immediately return to the centreline).

I wish that in the very beginning that landings were taught this way. Such a big deal is made about crosswind landings somehow being different. It really is just "keep centerline with bank and use the rudder to not land sideways." It really is that simple vs. "today we are going to practice our crosswind landing technique!"

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I wish that in the very beginning that landings were taught this way. Such a big deal is made about crosswind landings somehow being different. It really is just "keep centerline with bank and use the rudder to not land sideways." It really is that simple vs. "today we are going to practice our crosswind landing technique!"

I'm not a flight instructor, but in college, I tutored a lot of computer science students; simplicity in instruction wins, and a building-block approach to a maneuver will let you see what's wrong.

 

[thevideographer]

I wish that in the very beginning that landings were taught this way. Such a big deal is made about crosswind landings somehow being different. It really is just "keep centerline with bank and use the rudder to not land sideways." It really is that simple vs. "today we are going to practice our crosswind landing technique!"

I always tried to teach crosswind landings that way. It didn't really work. I think students just need to be in the mindset that they are doing something different when they're doing a crosswind landing because the corrections aren't going to come naturally.

 

[STS-41B]

I wish that in the very beginning that landings were taught this way. Such a big deal is made about crosswind landings somehow being different. It really is just "keep centerline with bank and use the rudder to not land sideways." It really is that simple vs. "today we are going to practice our crosswind landing technique!"

Exactly. I got my tail wheel endorsement from a retired guy who used to fly in the Navy and then 747s for Pan Am.
When I was over-controlling in a x-wind, he said "it doesn't matter if you're flying a J3 Cub or an F-14 or a 747, just keep it going straight and you'll be fine."

I've never forgotten that and for me at least, it helps to just remember that; as opposed to thinking "ok I need right aileron and left rudder.." Just becomes more instinctive. Same for V1 cuts. Keep it straight. And yes, you don't have to yank it off the ground- you're probably in the sim on a long runway at JFK, not the short runway at Burbank.

 

[trafficinsight]

I'm not a flight instructor, but in college, I tutored a lot of computer science students; simplicity in instruction wins, and a building-block approach to a maneuver will let you see what's wrong.

No no no, we just throw you at the problem and hope you figure it out within 3 attempts. The 4th attempt is on the checkride, good luck, we're all counting on you.