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Akbush said:
They prolly don't pay you a full retirement pension while being exempt from social security and pay 100 percent of your medical while being home most every night either. either way pilots are still getting screwed hard...block pay? fly 5 work 12 and not get paid for the other 7.....that's getting shafted royally. If a guy works 12 duty hours he should be getting 12x whatever his/her hourly rate is. If my rate was 70 an hour let's say...and I worked 12 I expect my 840 dollars for the shift...not 350...I don't work 7 hours for free...or for the perdiem rate which isn't even what the Starbucks guy at the airport makes.
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I agree with you. There is something seriously wrong with the airline pay structure.
 
Akbush said:
They prolly don't pay you a full retirement pension while being exempt from social security and pay 100 percent of your medical while being home most every night either. either way pilots are still getting screwed hard...block pay? fly 5 work 12 and not get paid for the other 7.....that's getting shafted royally. If a guy works 12 duty hours he should be getting 12x whatever his/her hourly rate is. If my rate was 70 an hour let's say...and I worked 12 I expect my 840 dollars for the shift...not 350...I don't work 7 hours for free...or for the perdiem rate which isn't even what the Starbucks guy at the airport makes.
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Relax. No ones saying driving a train is a bad job. Sounds like it's a good gig. But for you to come on here and say all aviation jobs are crap is just not true. This isn't 2008 anymore.

Pilots are getting screwed hard? I just had 12 days off and I've made close to 100k already this year. Jokes on me I guess.

And who cares about being home every night? I sure as hell don't. I almost enjoy going on a 4 day trip.

You should have stuck with aviation. If you do have Alaska bush time you would prob be at FedEx or ups by now.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Relax. No ones saying driving a train is a bad job. Sounds like it's a good gig. But for you to come on here and say all aviation jobs are crap is just not true. This isn't 2008 anymore.

Pilots are getting screwed hard? I just had 12 days off and I've made close to 100k already this year. Jokes on me I guess.

And who cares about being home every night? I sure as hell don't. I almost enjoy going on a 4 day trip.

You should have stuck with aviation. If you do have Alaska bush time you would prob be at FedEx or ups by now.
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Yes I've got a lot of 135 bush time all over Alaska..and a fair share of 121 time on the east coast..but I'm out and not coming back. I haven't flown any type of aircraft in quite some time now.
 
av8tr1 said:
I agree with you. There is something seriously wrong with the airline pay structure.
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Pilot groups could lobby to change block hour pay to duty hour pay. The company wouldn't care as long as overall pilot costs didn't go up.

I could care less as long as I'm making a lot of money.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Pilot groups could lobby to change block hour pay to duty hour pay. The company wouldn't care as long as overall pilot costs didn't go up.

I could care less as long as I'm making a lot of money.
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Yeah but the system is designed to screw the newer guys. I get the whole "pay your dues" But it's the very reason why the industry is struggling to find pilots. No one with any intelligence wants to take on 150K in debt to make 25K a year to start. I get that things are changing but how many times have we seen this industry go from feast to famine on a dime?

I think until our pay structure changes we are going to continue to struggle to find new blood for the industry.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
I35k huh? I don't know why you're acting all high and mighty but most everyone in aviation (except regional FOs) is making at least that with the potential to make way more. Might want to step down off that high horse.
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I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than just Regional FOs who are making less than $135k in aviation. In fact I would guess the vast majority of regional captains and quite a few LCC FOs are making less than that, plus most pilots outside of the airlines. It is true that you can make very good money as a pilot, certainly much better than as a rail conductor. However that represents a relatively small portion of all pilots. There is also no guarantee you will ever make that kind of money as a pilot, and many if not most pilots will never make it to that kind of a position.

As for it not being 2008, remember that the aviation industry is highly cyclical. It's already been 7.5 years since the last recession, which means we are just about due for another one. One reason the airlines are so profitable right now is because oil is unusually cheap, but that won't last forever. Also the onslaught of foreign competition from flag-of-convenience carriers is only beginning. Certainly we are enjoying good times in Aviation right now but the party probably won't last much longer.
 
av8tr1 said:
Yeah but the system is designed to screw the newer guys. I get the whole "pay your dues" But it's the very reason why the industry is struggling to find pilots. No one with any intelligence wants to take on 150K in debt to make 25K a year to start. I get that things are changing but how many times have we seen this industry go from feast to famine on a dime?

I think until our pay structure changes we are going to continue to struggle to find new blood for the industry.
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Today there aren't a lot of regional airlines left that will pay you just 25 grand a year.
 
Akbush said:
They prolly don't pay you a full retirement pension while being exempt from social security and pay 100 percent of your medical while being home most every night either. either way pilots are still getting screwed hard...block pay? fly 5 work 12 and not get paid for the other 7.....that's getting shafted royally. If a guy works 12 duty hours he should be getting 12x whatever his/her hourly rate is. If my rate was 70 an hour let's say...and I worked 12 I expect my 840 dollars for the shift...not 350...I don't work 7 hours for free...or for the perdiem rate which isn't even what the Starbucks guy at the airport makes.
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My uncle worked as a brakeman 30 years for SFBN. He was eaten up with cancer from all the asbestos he sucked in. Never got to enjoy his retirement. Most of his workmates met the same fate. Every industry has its dark side.
 
Cptnchia said:
My uncle worked as a brakeman 30 years for SFBN. He was eaten up with cancer from all the asbestos he sucked in. Never got to enjoy his retirement. Most of his workmates met the same fate. Every industry has its dark side.
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The railroad hasn't used asbestos brakes in years and most other components using it have been eliminated. I guess one could say there is a risk of cancer from the Diesel engines....but aircraft fuel can't be any better...or dipping a can in a 12 hour shift prolly isnt good either. That must have been years ago? We haven't used brakeman is many years they elimated 3 person crews 15 years ago.
 
Yakob said:
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, but I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than just Regional FOs who are making less than $135k in aviation. In fact I would guess the vast majority of regional captains and quite a few LCC FOs are making less than that, plus most pilots outside of the airlines. It is true that you can make very good money as a pilot, certainly much better than as a rail conductor. However that represents a relatively small portion of all pilots. There is also no guarantee you will ever make that kind of money as a pilot, and many if not most pilots will never make it to that kind of a position.

As for it not being 2008, remember that the aviation industry is highly cyclical. It's already been 7.5 years since the last recession, which means we are just about due for another one. One reason the airlines are so profitable right now is because oil is unusually cheap, but that won't last forever. Also the onslaught of foreign competition from flag-of-convenience carriers is only beginning. Certainly we are enjoying good times in Aviation right now but the party probably won't last much longer.
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Legacy airlines total over 40,000 pilots. I wouldn't call that a "relatively small portion of all pilots."
 
Dexter said:
Legacy airlines total over 40,000 pilots. I wouldn't call that a "relatively small portion of all pilots."
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Sure, but how many total professional pilots are there? I suspect 40,000 is still a minority of the total. I believe there are well over 100,000 ATP holders, although of course some of them may not be actively employed as pilots.

My point was that pilots making $135k or greater are in the minority. The claim I was responding to was that "everyone in aviation except regional FOs is making 135k" which is plainly inaccurate.
 
M20B_pilot said:
Funny, but I looked and from what I found online, conductors on avaerage make around $60,000 a year. I made around $45,000 my first year at a regional and I'm on track to make about $50k or so this year. If I upgrade later this year, I'll be making more than the average train conductor.

If you hate the job so much, why do you hang out on this forum?
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Yikes. My first job out of college in 1997 at McDonnell-Douglas started at $45k a year
 
Yakob said:
Sure, but how many total professional pilots are there? I suspect 40,000 is still a minority of the total. I believe there are well over 100,000 ATP holders, although of course some of them may not be actively employed as pilots.

My point was that pilots making $135k or greater are in the minority. The claim I was responding to was that "everyone in aviation except regional FOs is making 135k" which is plainly inaccurate.
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Everyone at the big 6 who is not on first year pay will gross at least 135k.
 
jtrain609 said:
Well...

That'd require a second year pilot at the Virgin Alakasian to credit around 1,500 hours in a year, which is likely challenging to do.

But in general I think you're right once Alaska and JetBlue get new contracts.
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Eww no not Alaska/JB I meant AA, UA, DL, SW, FX, UPS.
 
Akbush said:
They prolly don't pay you a full retirement pension while being exempt from social security and pay 100 percent of your medical while being home most every night either. either way pilots are still getting screwed hard...block pay? fly 5 work 12 and not get paid for the other 7.....that's getting shafted royally. If a guy works 12 duty hours he should be getting 12x whatever his/her hourly rate is. If my rate was 70 an hour let's say...and I worked 12 I expect my 840 dollars for the shift...not 350...I don't work 7 hours for free...or for the perdiem rate which isn't even what the Starbucks guy at the airport makes.
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You do realize that the hourly rates take the fact that pilots are only paid off block time into account, right? If we were paid on duty time our hourly rate would be 1/2 what it is.

We are paid to do the job from duty report to duty end. The way that pay is calculated is via block time. It's pretty comical that you think we would be paid very high hourly rates if we were paid from report to duty end.

Personally, I don't mind getting paid that for the duty time, but it would be really really hard to compare apples to apples when looking at other airlines. It's hard enough to compare as it is given the various work rules.
 
Yakob said:
Sure, but how many total professional pilots are there? I suspect 40,000 is still a minority of the total. I believe there are well over 100,000 ATP holders, although of course some of them may not be actively employed as pilots.

My point was that pilots making $135k or greater are in the minority. The claim I was responding to was that "everyone in aviation except regional FOs is making 135k" which is plainly inaccurate.
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Ehhh, I doubt that the pilots making over $135k are in the minority. Most FOs at my shop are in that range after year 3-4 (depending on their level of whorishness).

My buddy is on year 5 pay, and he makes more as a line holding A320 FO than someone would make as a reserve E190 captain. He made $185k last year. Reserve guarantee on the E190 Captain seat at year 5 is around $150k, give/take.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
...but it would be really really hard to compare apples to apples when looking at other airlines. It's hard enough to compare as it is given the various work rules.
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You think THAT would be hard... try comparing yourself to other airlines when your airline uses a completely made-up multiplier based on how long it takes to fly between two cities in Texas...




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