Couple questions on single engine manuveurs.

N8081G

New Member
Hey all,

Just wanted to throw a couple questions out there and would appreciate your feedback. Ok let's say you're on a left downwind in a multi-engine airplane and you lost the left engine. Given the current conditions you decided that you can make the field, are you allowed to make a left turn and continue on to base or would banking towards the inoperative engine create more problems for you?

Also on a single engine ILS, is there a special technique you use when lowering the gear and flaps? I know you won't want to have a lot of drag out there since you might not be able to mantain VYSE incase of a go-around. When do you use flaps? Do you use all three notches when established on the glideslope or do you use only two? I know it's probably all dependent on the current conditions but i'm looking for a genereal idea.

Anyways, thanks much.
 

HOTDOG

New Member
Hey all,

Just wanted to throw a couple questions out there and would appreciate your feedback. Ok let's say you're on a left downwind in a multi-engine airplane and you lost the left engine. Given the current conditions you decided that you can make the field, are you allowed to make a left turn and continue on to base or would banking towards the inoperative engine create more problems for you?

Also on a single engine ILS, is there a special technique you use when lowering the gear and flaps? I know you won't want to have a lot of drag out there since you might not be able to mantain VYSE incase of a go-around. When do you use flaps? Do you use all three notches when established on the glideslope or do you use only two? I know it's probably all dependent on the current conditions but i'm looking for a genereal idea.

Anyways, thanks much.
Alot of it depends on your airplane. What type of single engine aircraft are you referring to?
 

vheissu

Well-Known Member
I would personally bank into the in-op engine and land using left traffic. That is of much debate, however. Also, in your typical light twin, approach flaps and the gear down when you have the runway made is what I was taught. Don't get yourself in a situation where you have to go around ;)
 

N8081G

New Member
I would personally bank into the in-op engine and land using left traffic. That is of much debate, however. Also, in your typical light twin, approach flaps and the gear down when you have the runway made is what I was taught. Don't get yourself in a situation where you have to go around ;)
Ok thanks. I know that you always need opposite aileron and rudder whenever you lose an engine because the airplane tends to roll and yaw towards the inoperative engine. Would you bank in standard rate or half standard rate if you were to turn in the inop engine?

I also agree about lowering the flaps and gear when you're 100% sure you can make the runway, however, with the amount of workload and lack of experience someone may have, he/she might forget to lower the gear. It's pretty common. For me, its best to lower the gear early in the single engine landing e.g. turing base instead of waiting until short final. Flaps you can land without, gear you cannot.
 

vheissu

Well-Known Member
I have never had a problem banking towards the inop engine. In the case of a real emergency, just do what you have to do. Don't do a steep turn, just kept it gentle. I remember seeing an article somewhere disproving the whole "don't bank into the inop engine" myth, I'll try and see if I can find it.
 

Boris Badenov

Let's get this thing on the hump!
Bank in to the inop engine and keep it fast. Put the flaps down when you have the field made. And if that baby crawls out on to the runway, it's just going to have to die. Don't make things more difficult than they need to be.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
There should be not problem making a left turn with the left engine inoperative in the situation you mentioned. Presumably you're descending or level and have adequate airspeed so that controlability is not an issue and maximum performance (climbing) is not required.

I flew the Seneca alot and even under normal conditions I rarely landed with full flaps, they just add a ton of drag and make a main wheel first landing even more difficult. A normal landing for me was the second notch (20 or 25 deg).

I don't have a Seneca manual present, but if I remember correctly the first 10 degrees of flaps on a S.E. approach could be added on downwind or while maneuvering for the approach. You could lower the gear at Glide Slope intercept or if you are visual, when you intercept a visual 3 deg glipe path. Final flaps (20) to be added when landing was assured (if at all). I never remember doing a full flaps S.E. approach in a Seneca.
 

tgrayson

New Member
are you allowed to make a left turn and continue on to base or would banking towards the inoperative engine create more problems for you?
The "don't bank into the dead engine" is a myth; it's such a myth that you don't ever see it in modern literature on ME flying. Will banking into the dead engine raise Vmc? If you don't coordinate with rudder, sure. Keep the ball 1/2 out when making the left turn by relaxing your rudder and you'll experience no increase in Vmc. Even if you did, you're at high enough airspeed that it won't matter.

Do you use all three notches when established on the glideslope or do you use only two?
You shouldn't use three notches even with two engines while flying the glideslope. The only advantage to using one is that you'll have a lower nose attitude during the approach, which improves visibility over the nose.

One notch of flaps and gear down at GS intercept is probably fine; make sure you have enough reserve climb ability in that configuration to correct for any glideslope deviations.

BTW, I have a lot of Seneca I time and I always used full flaps and was able to land it full-stall. Single engine, reserve the last flap notch for short final. Don't expect to be going around.
 

casey

Well-Known Member
Ok thanks. I know that you always need opposite aileron and rudder whenever you lose an engine because the airplane tends to roll and yaw towards the inoperative engine. Would you bank in standard rate or half standard rate if you were to turn in the inop engine?
you can do steep turns into either engine if you want, just dont get slow.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
Bank in to the inop engine and keep it fast. Put the flaps down when you have the field made. And if that baby crawls out on to the runway, it's just going to have to die. Don't make things more difficult than they need to be.

exactly.

keep your speed up. keep it coordinated. drop the wheels when you have the runway made. if the runway is plenty long, i usually prefer to not even bother with the flaps. just one more complication to add... why bother changing config again when youve only got about 10 seconds left of flying to do?

"fly the plane."
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
It's been a while since I flew a light twin like a Seneca or Seminole. I have a lot of time instructing in a Cessna 310 though and that is somewhat comparable. In the 310 I would lower the gear and add first flaps at 1000' AGL on the glideslope. I never really felt comfortable about going missed on a single-engine ILS in a light twin but the 310 probably could do it.

I have about 500-600 hours in the Dash-8 now and for the most part everything is the same single as multi-engine on the ILS in this aircraft. Put the gear and flaps down at the same time, use the same flap settings, keep the ball in the center. Only thing I can think of that is actually different is that you dont use reverse on landing, but since I hardly ever touch the brakes much less go into reverse when I land thats not really applicable.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
exactly.

keep your speed up. keep it coordinated. drop the wheels when you have the runway made. if the runway is plenty long, i usually prefer to not even bother with the flaps. just one more complication to add... why bother changing config again when youve only got about 10 seconds left of flying to do?

"fly the plane."
I disagree with this. Flaps are there for a reason. The last thing I would want when I was single-engine ILS was to have an unstabilized approach because I was too fast or too high below 1000ft. Try to cross the fence at the same airspeed that you do with 2 engines because in my opinion it is safer.

The only time I'd come in with a little extra speed (5-10kts) is when low level windshear is reported in the terminal area.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
I disagree with this. Flaps are there for a reason. The last thing I would want when I was single-engine ILS was to have an unstabilized approach because I was too fast or too high below 1000ft. Try to cross the fence at the same airspeed that you do with 2 engines because in my opinion it is safer.

The only time I'd come in with a little extra speed (5-10kts) is when low level windshear is reported in the terminal area.

why would no flaps cause you to be unstabilized? why would you be too high or too fast?

we're talking a light twin here, not a superpowered jet monster. with full flaps and gear out youll be lucky to maintain a 400fpm DESCENT in the semi....god forbid you need to adjust back UP a little on the approach...little low? oops, need to make a config change again...

one more thing to screw with. keep it clean and flyin till you have the runway made. in fact i cant even think of a time where i shot ANY approach in the seminole with ANY flaps. slows you down, waste of time/money, and theyre not needed to make the plane fly just fine.

id MUCH rather find myself high and fast while SE, than low and slow....
 

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
N8081G said:
Hey all,

Just wanted to throw a couple questions out there and would appreciate your feedback. Ok let's say you're on a left downwind in a multi-engine airplane and you lost the left engine. Given the current conditions you decided that you can make the field, are you allowed to make a left turn and continue on to base or would banking towards the inoperative engine create more problems for you?
See the mentioned responses. Coordinated turns into the inop engine (ball 1/2 out) are really no issue. I know several instructors who use the technique of reducing your operative engine's thrust lever during a turn [in the pattern] into the inop engine. Technique is up to the pilot but no safety hazard presents itself with such a turn if done correctly.

N8081G said:
Also on a single engine ILS, is there a special technique you use when lowering the gear and flaps? I know you won't want to have a lot of drag out there since you might not be able to mantain VYSE incase of a go-around. When do you use flaps? Do you use all three notches when established on the glideslope or do you use only two? I know it's probably all dependent on the current conditions but i'm looking for a genereal idea.

Anyways, thanks much.
I always teach to try and keep the single engine approach, both visual and IAP, as normal as possible. Most of my light twin time comes from the Seminole so, one dot below GSIA the gear and props go down and forward, respectively. I typically left the flaps up for such an approach (ILS) or possibly put in 10 degrees. However, I never found it to be an issue to add flaps once visual contact was made with the runway. Some may argue it would introduce a de-stabilzing effect while on short final and I'd say that the Seminole tends to pitch nose down heavily with the intoduction of flaps and can increase pilot work load during a high workload situation, if put in at the GSIA.

Again, technique.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
Also on a single engine ILS, is there a special technique you use when lowering the gear and flaps? I know you won't want to have a lot of drag out there since you might not be able to mantain VYSE incase of a go-around. When do you use flaps? Do you use all three notches when established on the glideslope or do you use only two? I know it's probably all dependent on the current conditions but i'm looking for a genereal idea.
When I bought my Seneca I had a long talk with the Chief Pilot where I was working as a CFI and thought long and hard about what I would do if I ever found myself on a SE ILS approach. In the end, I adopted my Chief's position:

On a SE approach (VFR or IFR) I will put the wheels and flaps down when I have the field made. On an ILS, that point is the glide-slope intercept. There are a few reasons I have adopted this position.

1. As others have said, I want a SE approach to be as normal as possible. That's where I've spent my time developing my judgment, and I don't need to do something unusual when the airplane is already acting up.

2. SE flight is the most fatal regime of flying light twins. We all learn SE go-arounds and have to perform them on flight tests, but statistics prove that pilots don't retain this skill very well.

Personally, when I intercept the glide-slope in a light twin and lower the gear I am committed to land unless I don't acquire the runway visually. Nothing else will keep me from landing. If someone pulls out on the runway in front of me when I am short final, I will side step and land in the grass. I'd rather crash in controlled flight at the approach end of the runway with both engines at idle than attempt a go around (and probably make it), but face almost certain fatal consequences if things go amiss. I can’t think of a good reason not to make an off-field landing next to the runway given the above scenario. The only reason I could come up with was to prevent damage to the airplane from a soft-field landing or obstacles I might meet off the side of the runway.

I heard Rod Machado years ago giving a talk at Oshkosh. He said, “I’ve never flown an airplane worth more that $5,000.” That’s the deductible he carries on his insurance policy. His point was that sometimes pilots let the price of the plane influence their actions. They choose a more risky action to possibly prevent damage to the plane, but in reality their insurance policy was there to allow them to choose a safer alternative, even if damaging the airplane would be a more likely outcome. I decided I’d never try to save myself $5,000 by performing the most statistically fatal maneuver possible in a light twin when I could just side-step and land in the grass, and at worst, be mired in paperwork with my insurance company for a few weeks or months.
 

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
On a SE approach (VFR or IFR) I will put the wheels and flaps down when I have the field made. On an ILS, that point is the glide-slope intercept. There are a few reasons I have adopted this position.


Do you think the GSI is the "field made" position from gliding point of view?
 

Old Pete

Cockpit Authoritarian
I doubt it. I've never seen a twin that has a 3 to 1 glide ratio.
You would need a heck of a lot more than 3 to1. do you mean 3 degree glide angle.

You would need better than 17 to 1 to glide from the gsi on an ILS to the runway.
 
Top