Controllers working 2 freqs

Mark815

Mark815

Well-Known Member
Backstory....The other day we were enroute from the Northeast, VFR to TEB with a code from Boston center. We we decending out of the teens towards the Hudson, to assure we got below the bravo. Boston center hands us off to NY, who we in turn check in with without any issues. After about a minute ATC calls us, and we respond, however we got no response back from ATC. When we tried to call again, he started talking to other traffic on the freq, and also another freq he apparently was on since we couldn't hear the pilots. We tried calling in again, and ATC never answered, however he continued to respond and talk to other traffic that was on the other freq. We tried both comms, even got a hold of other pilots on our freq, however ATC never responded. At one point ATC finally responded to the pilots checking in on our freq, however they continued to ignore us when we tried to call. We tried another NY freq that was near by, and again, we got nothing. At this point we had ended up traveling about 30 or so miles, and ended up calling HPN tower just to get a comm check and figure out what was going on. We were finally given another freq by tower, and we finally got ATC back like it was nothing, and continued on.

My questions for the controllers is, when you're operating 2 frequencies, do you have the ability to turn one of them down? We still have no idea why that NY controllers wouldn't acknowledge us, even though he initially called us. It really made us sit and trouble shoot our own radios, and spend about 10 minutes figuring out if it was us or them, and if there was any issue (traffic or airspace or something) since he called us. We also ended up getting really frustrated, because he would very randomly acknowledge other aircraft on our freq, yet ignored us completely.
 
I really couldn't tell you an exact answer about NY because I haven't flown up there.
Usually out west we have issues with ZLA running a large area at night and sometimes talking on same freq but different transmitter, then we will hear the other aircraft come back. Takes like 3 calls to get them. Plus they will combine multiple sectors at night.. That can be a hassle.

Also, there are issues with some controllers (Nellis, Luke) running uniform and victor at the same time and things get difficult with him listening to channelized uniform and all the combined victor approach freqs.
 
Mark815 said:
My questions for the controllers is, when you're operating 2 frequencies, do you have the ability to turn one of them down?
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We don't at my facility. All frequencies are adjusted with a single volume knob at each position. So it's all the same volume level.
 
Nor at mine. Possible that they may have had something set up incorrectly at the sector, or were experiencing a receiver problem.
 
It was a really frustrating 10 minutes. It wasn't one of those situations where you try to call VFR, and they ignore you because they're too busy. We were already established on a code, had been working with center enroute, and checking into NY without any problem. The only problem came when they tried to call us, and never responded. It was so odd to hear him acknowdelge other aircraft on frequency, yet totally ignore us, even though we finally asked "How do you hear this transmitter" multiple times (which, even when ATC purposely ignored me in the past, I've gotten them to at least say SOMETHING when I use that line). We honestly didn't know if something was wrong on our end, or if he had screwed something up. Last place I want a comm issue is going into TEB
 
I've seen receivers with 3 positions. Speaker, Off and Headset. Never been in an ATC facility east of the Mississippi.
 
So VFR inbound to HPN you couldn't get a response? Never worked only 2 freqs before, I've worked over 30 at a time counting UHF though. To me it sounds like you were too low if by teens you mean below 2,000 a opposed to 17,000. Center doesn't know where approach transmitters are. In my airspace I may have transmitters 40 miles apart and if you're at the center of my airspace I can hear you just fine on all but a select few frequencies placed at my airspace boundary.

The other potential problem is don't let the radio fool you. It may have been easy sailing on the radio, but for all you know the controller is fielding a land line call every 30 seconds. They may not have been. You don't know. Knowing how I work, if I call a VFR while I'm being blasted with coordination calls, if they don't snap back respond, well they're VFR. They've got a sectional, I'm going to keep planes clear of them and they can figure out the freq for the tower on their own.

My bet is on being too low. Did you ever ask one of the other A/C on freq to relay for you to approach? If not, your answer is you were too low. If thats the case, HPN may be five miles away but the approach building and its transmitters may be 40 miles further and not liking the line of sight.
 
genot said:
So VFR inbound to HPN you couldn't get a response? Never worked only 2 freqs before, I've worked over 30 at a time counting UHF though. To me it sounds like you were too low if by teens you mean below 2,000 a opposed to 17,000. Center doesn't know where approach transmitters are. In my airspace I may have transmitters 40 miles apart and if you're at the center of my airspace I can hear you just fine on all but a select few frequencies placed at my airspace boundary.

The other potential problem is don't let the radio fool you. It may have been easy sailing on the radio, but for all you know the controller is fielding a land line call every 30 seconds. They may not have been. You don't know. Knowing how I work, if I call a VFR while I'm being blasted with coordination calls, if they don't snap back respond, well they're VFR. They've got a sectional, I'm going to keep planes clear of them and they can figure out the freq for the tower on their own.

My bet is on being too low. Did you ever ask one of the other A/C on freq to relay for you to approach? If not, your answer is you were too low. If thats the case, HPN may be five miles away but the approach building and its transmitters may be 40 miles further and not liking the line of sight.
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+1 Also sometimes frequencies are weird we have one that has a black hole between 4000-6000 for about a ten mile square area. I can hear you at 3500 and 6500 but not between, not even broken.
 
fholbert said:
I've seen receivers with 3 positions. Speaker, Off and Headset. Never been in an ATC facility east of the Mississippi.
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I forgot to mention this, we have this ability as well, but landline calls come through the speaker so I don't generally put any frequencies into the it when working radar (it's nice in the tower because I can split Ground/Local frequencies to speaker/headset to keep radio clutter down if needed). Sounds like the OP was getting stepped on so frequently and perfectly as to not be understood, or the controller just wasn't receiving him well in the first place due to location and/or altitude.
 
And to add more variance to this. You, like an airplane I worked this morning, may have been being blocked by aircraft at 3,000 MSL talking to another ATC facility 300 miles away. Holy bleed over batman!

Side story here. The approach that I was hearing is a class C, I work class B. A guy called me asking for a class C transition to which I replied N12345, are you calling XYZ (me) or ABC (them), promptly slapped myself remembering call sign mentioned is all you need for a Charlie before being relieved to find out he was in my sector, just used to saying Charlie.
 
genot said:
And to add more variance to this. You, like an airplane I worked this morning, may have been being blocked by aircraft at 3,000 MSL talking to another ATC facility 300 miles away. Holy bleed over batman!

Side story here. The approach that I was hearing is a class C, I work class B. A guy called me asking for a class C transition to which I replied N12345, are you calling XYZ (me) or ABC (them), promptly slapped myself remembering call sign mentioned is all you need for a Charlie before being relieved to find out he was in my sector, just used to saying Charlie.
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That seems like a problem that should be addressed
 
genot said:
So VFR inbound to HPN you couldn't get a response? Never worked only 2 freqs before, I've worked over 30 at a time counting UHF though. To me it sounds like you were too low if by teens you mean below 2,000 a opposed to 17,000. Center doesn't know where approach transmitters are. In my airspace I may have transmitters 40 miles apart and if you're at the center of my airspace I can hear you just fine on all but a select few frequencies placed at my airspace boundary.

The other potential problem is don't let the radio fool you. It may have been easy sailing on the radio, but for all you know the controller is fielding a land line call every 30 seconds. They may not have been. You don't know. Knowing how I work, if I call a VFR while I'm being blasted with coordination calls, if they don't snap back respond, well they're VFR. They've got a sectional, I'm going to keep planes clear of them and they can figure out the freq for the tower on their own.

My bet is on being too low. Did you ever ask one of the other A/C on freq to relay for you to approach? If not, your answer is you were too low. If thats the case, HPN may be five miles away but the approach building and its transmitters may be 40 miles further and not liking the line of sight.
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We had descended from 16,500, and when we were handed off to NY Approach initially, we were still descending out of 5-6000', so I def don't think we were too low. We've done that route numerous times before, same freq and same type of "approach" while VFR (descended towards the Hudson and then got below the Bravo), with no issue in the past. Like I stated before, NY took our check in, gave us the altimeter and went on to the other traffic. The issue arose when he called us, we responded, and he never responded back from that point on.

I appreciate the input from you guys, it's really nice to get an answer from someone on the other end of the radio.
 
boondr said:
That seems like a problem that should be addressed
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I told the FLM and will ATSAP, we'll see.

Mark815 said:
We had descended from 16,500, and when we were handed off to NY Approach initially, we were still descending out of 5-6000', so I def don't think we were too low. We've done that route numerous times before, same freq and same type of "approach" while VFR (descended towards the Hudson and then got below the Bravo), with no issue in the past. Like I stated before, NY took our check in, gave us the altimeter and went on to the other traffic. The issue arose when he called us, we responded, and he never responded back from that point on.

I appreciate the input from you guys, it's really nice to get an answer from someone on the other end of the radio.
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Sounds like he didn't hear you. Maybe your transmitter, maybe his receiver, maybe the land line blocked you or maybe he was too busy. If its the former, its just happenstance. If its the latter, if you're out of darned near the flight levels and I'm on the edge of all I can handle you're probably a much more experienced pilot with much more advanced equipment than Joe Blow in a Skyhawk or I'm inundated with landline calls. You're the guy that'll be more ok if I miss but ignore due to workload than the skittish weekend warrior.

Thats all I can add.
 
genot said:
And to add more variance to this. You, like an airplane I worked this morning, may have been being blocked by aircraft at 3,000 MSL talking to another ATC facility 300 miles away. Holy bleed over batman!

Side story here. The approach that I was hearing is a class C, I work class B. A guy called me asking for a class C transition to which I replied N12345, are you calling XYZ (me) or ABC (them), promptly slapped myself remembering call sign mentioned is all you need for a Charlie before being relieved to find out he was in my sector, just used to saying Charlie.
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These folks might be interested in that too.
 
During our midnight consolidation, we routinely work listening to up to 15 frequencies.

During busy operation times, it's normal to have three or four freqs on the go.

We do however have frequency coupling, which means that I can tie them all together so that a plane you normally physically can't hear in the cockpit due to range you now can hear (if you transmit on one it broadcasts on the rest instantly) this is a great tool which cuts down on pilots talking at the same time.
 
canadian_atc said:
During our midnight consolidation, we routinely work listening to up to 15 frequencies.

.
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When I used to fly midnights in ZAB's airspace in the southern NM/AZ area, everytime I got a freq change, it was always "XXX, contact me on XXX.XX" Was like this for 5 or 6 sectors while I tooled around ZAB's airspace going here and there and back again. Would regularly also get cleared block 25-30 also.
 
Yeah, even at my tower when we are working everything combined, when I transmit I transmit on all control freqs.
 
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