Zeppelinpilot
New Member
I have read the article. It's great.
But just because one controller says something like that does not make it remotely true.
Controller Disconnect
- Thread starter conmant
- Start date
I have read the article. It's great.
But just because one controller says something like that does not make it remotely true.
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
if the only reason youll join the union is because we cant strike you might just save your money and not join .dont belive us controller about how it is just find out for your self, ill be the one laughing.
AFTOFAAATC
New Member
Cool thanks.
Rosstafari
Likes tacos
It's making a pretty big jump to go from the off-hand statement of a single controller who's pleased with his vectoring to "the FAA prefers people to not have college degrees or unrelated jobs". I don't think you'll find anybody who'd agree with you there, pm. It's just not a logical conclusion -- successful college coursework shows dedication and an ability to learn, which is part of the reason that it's a qualifying criteria on the PUBNATs (alongside demonstrating increasing responsibility in past jobs).
pm577
New Member
I did not, and am not saying this. More along the lines that: someone who touts their supreme Bachelor's and Master's education isn't any better/worse than other applicants for this particular profession.
Although I will say, once a person has attained very advanced degrees, then applying for ATC becomes questionable. If you have a Master's in engineering, then the faa will surely want to know if you intend on sticking around. Anyone with a useful Master's or certain Bachelor's degrees can make more money with their degree than in ATC.
And an extreme case... if you had an applicant with a PhD, then you'd have to question whether they are suitable. Someone with such a large number of years of schooling is more used to prolonged articulate thought, not the quick calculations/decisions required by ATC.
I'm just biased from my experience at UC Berkeley. If this ATC thing goes through I'll be dropping out (and happy to leave) after nearly 90 units and a 3.79 GPA. They can take their education and shove it up their...
My feeling is that my education has nothing to do with any directly applicable career path, and is more a game and show of "been there so I must be special".
Delta Romeo
New Member
Trust me PM....after working for the FAA for 22+ years....they do not think that way. Don't overthink this. They are taking anyone who meets the basic requirements of 3 years work experience (it could be picking up trash, or working at McDonalds for all they care) or 4 years of college or a combination of both. What you did, and how well you did it, or where you did it, does not really matter to them. They are just going through the motions b/c the guidelines have been given to them and they have to follow them. They have to check each box to pass you on to the next phase. Thats it, short and simple.
Zeppelinpilot
New Member
As for your example of someone with a PhD, again that is purely speculation. The head of the ATC department at my CTI school has a PhD.
As for you planning of dropping out. This is a very personal decision, and I would never dream of telling you what to do in your life. But they way I see it, getting an education is not always about ensuring a better job (although this is THE major advantage of it). Getting a general college education is going to make you more knowledgeable in all facets of life (this is not an attempt to say college educated people are better than non college educated people. It is simply an attempt to acknowledge the obvious added benefits of a college degree). Your understanding of science, whether it be biology or physics or geology. Your understanding of business and the economy. Non college educated people can of course learn all of these things. But the point is, there are other reasons to get a degree then just to get a better job.
Here is a quick story I heard on NPR:
A guy graduated from college (don't remember which one) and he wanted to write a book about what life would be like living on the streets. So he told his parents he was leaving and that they would not see him for at least 6 months. He told them what he was doing, but swore he would not call them but once a week to say he was alive. He left his house and moved somewhere in the south (I forget where). He took no money with him, and only a few sets of clothes. The last thing that he did was swear that he would not use he college degree for anything. He would not tell anyone he had a college degree, he would apply for jobs with out telling the employer he had a degree.
To make this short (to late:crazy
, within 3 months he he had a job and was living in an apartment. He wrote a book that was meant as a motivational lesson to those people in those situations, showing how even without a degree, you can go from being on the streets, to having a job and an apartment. What I thought was funny (and ignorant) was that he assumed the ONLY good the degree did him was to help him apply for jobs. As if what he learned during those years was useless.
Sorry...I'm done
And an aptitude for the job as shown by a qualifying score on the AT-SAT. It will be interesting to see the follow-on study in a few years showing how good of an indicator the AT-SAT has been for success in the ATC profession.
pm577
New Member
I would fully believe that.
You know, I once searched "air traffic control" on my school's academic database, and I found various studies/research on the ATSAT. Apparently there IS a positive and significant statistical correlation between ATSAT scores and passing the FAA Academy (although I think this was done when the Academy washed out 50% of applicants).
Back then there was less emphasis on the ATSAT scores, .... more so in the research stage. But the conclusion said that if the FAA picks candidates with high ATSAT scores, then the Academy pass rates should go up (hence, now we have less Academy washouts, and the ATSAT is used instead of the Academy as the filtering/selection tool).
pm577
New Member
Hmm, interesting story (NPR is great isn't it?)
I'm just disillusioned from my experience. My studies in economics don't lead me to any logical conclusion in my mind. (Like what...? I'm going to a finance manger? or cubicle-slave? heck no!) Maybe if I were studying aviation or at a cti school then I would have a better experience.
Zeppelinpilot
New Member
NPR is great. Its the only thing on in my car. And I drive a lot.
You don't feel that you have a better understanding of how our economy works because of the classes you took? I just like to know as much as possible about as many things as possible.
I guess I hope to be a jack of all trades and a king of one (ATC)
I feel like because I went to a CTI school, that I have missed out on a lot the courses that may be offered at other school. I for one plan on going to school again (after I check out at a my facility, and only if the staffing crisis gets better so I can have some free time). I hope to get a philosophy degree. My school only offered one philosophy course. And as much as I loved it, I want more. I would go to school just for fun. A degree to me is not about a job. That is obvious in the fact that I am going into a profession that does not require one. I just like school. And I like to know things. So we'll see, maybe Ill have 3 or 4 degrees by the time that die.
I guess I would describe my self as that guy who "over analyzes" things. So when you made that claim that those type of people can't do the job, I just wanted to refute it.
You don't feel that you have a better understanding of how our economy works because of the classes you took? I just like to know as much as possible about as many things as possible.
I guess I hope to be a jack of all trades and a king of one (ATC
) I feel like because I went to a CTI school, that I have missed out on a lot the courses that may be offered at other school. I for one plan on going to school again (after I check out at a my facility, and only if the staffing crisis gets better so I can have some free time). I hope to get a philosophy degree. My school only offered one philosophy course. And as much as I loved it, I want more. I would go to school just for fun. A degree to me is not about a job. That is obvious in the fact that I am going into a profession that does not require one. I just like school. And I like to know things. So we'll see, maybe Ill have 3 or 4 degrees by the time that die.
I guess I would describe my self as that guy who "over analyzes" things. So when you made that claim that those type of people can't do the job, I just wanted to refute it.
pm577
New Member
Well yes, some of the economics classes are lots of fun and also change your way of thinking about the economy and free markets. So i agree, there is value in some of the things I have taken.
For me to graduate I have to take 2 semesters of foreign lanaguage... I just don't think I can handle that.
Sometimes I think about my dad when I think of education and ATC. He has a Master's in engineering... and he'll double and triple check everything, then ask you again if you did something. Perhaps that's more personal characteristic than anything college will instill.
If a tracon controller double checked every read-back... well he wouldn't get very far :crazy:
AFTOFAAATC
New Member
See my avatar please, hippie. Just kidding. Little bit of fun off the subject.
Zeppelinpilot
New Member
This is true.
Delta Romeo
New Member
The AT-SAT isn't anything new. I took it with a paper booklet and a scan tron form back 20-something years ago. The only thing new about it is the fact that they have renamed it the "AT-SAT' and how its administered. All it does is measure some level of spatial apptitude in the applicant.
AFTOFAAATC
New Member
I knew it!
Well, judge for yourself. If it's not completely new, the subtest sections have at least been significantly reweighted in the last few years, and the goal is still to predict success in the ATC field.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200714.pdf
pm577
New Member
From the study linked above:
"After reweighting,
I doubt the second quote is true now. It sounds like they made the ATSAT easier rather than harder.
"After reweighting,
the correlation between AT-SAT and a job performance
composite measure was reduced slightly, from .69 to .60. Compared with most validation coefficients, this is still a strong correlation with job performance."
composite measure was reduced slightly, from .69 to .60. Compared with most validation coefficients, this is still a strong correlation with job performance."
"By original design, 38% of fully
certified incumbent FAA controllers would not pass AT-SAT under the original scoring scheme."
certified incumbent FAA controllers would not pass AT-SAT under the original scoring scheme."
I doubt the second quote is true now. It sounds like they made the ATSAT easier rather than harder.
Rosstafari
Likes tacos
If the green book is to be believed, the passing rate of the AT-SAT is 95-97%, compared to 57% for the old test.
