Controller Disconnect

conmant

New Member
Does it appear to some of you that there appears to be a disconnect between "some" of the experienced controllers and "some" of the controllers-in-training and controllers-to-be? I read a lot of posts on here and often wonder where this stems from. Some current, experienced controllers complain about the state of affairs in ATC with new, inexperienced controllers. I, being a "general public" candidate (I HATE this OTS tag. It has a negative connotation to me), have a few questions for experienced controllers. Before I pose these questions, I want to supply some background on myself. I have flown a couple times and have always been huge on aviation. I have a BS in Political Science and History. I am in my second year of graduate school working on my MBA and MS in Management.

Most of us know that the ATC workforce is in transition. This is the same for the government as a whole. The older workforce now or will have in the next few years the option for retirement. For experienced controllers on this site, I often comprehend their views as being overly negative about the industry and sometimes about the people who will be replacing them. I find it interesting too that some of these experienced controllers who criticize either the quality of the applicants or what FAA academy teaches them were in the same position. Let's not forget that many of these controllers who were hired after the strike did not often have the same level of qualifications this new wave of controllers-to-be have (i.e. advanced and college degrees, some college, CTI, military, real-work experience). Sure, I for one don't have any aviation experience, but should that disqualify me for doing something I am passionate about?

The real issue here is that many ATC's may be pissed with the forced labor contract and possibly staffing shortages/pay reductions. I am in full agreement with you there, but please keep in mind that this new wave may never see the amount of money many older controllers enjoy(ed). Hopefully, but it's unlikely. In terms of the shortages, the FAA has to do something and they're doing it, maybe not in the smoothest, fastest, or efficient time we would like, but they're addressing the problem.

It's easy to pick and broadcast on those who did not make it in their facility. If I didn't know any better after looking at some of these posts, I would not believe that anyone could make it. We always dwell on the negative. Focus on what's positive and what you're doing to improve the situation. Why sit and moan about every single thing when you can do something productive about it. If not, why even still stay in the industry, stay in the academy, or stay in the application process?

I know what I'll hear from some about you haven't experienced it yet or just wait. You know what, I'll do just that and make a rationale decision from my own perspectives. As much as I would like to become an Air Traffic Controller, if everyday I walked into a place I just could not stand b/c of the conditions, pay, etc., I would give it up in a heartbeat. This applies to any job. I believe that I, and many others, in this new wave of controllers-to-be could have fallbacks, especially since our education and work experiences are so diverse.

These posts are informative, even the negative ones because it lets you know what's really going on with some of the workforce and the issues they hold. The FAA is not perfect and have made many blunders, but like it or not, they're your employers. This isn't to say you give in to every dumb idea they have. Speak up for what you believe in and help the newer generation out, which I know many of you have done. We are grateful, but don't trash the industry now just because you may or may not decide it's not in your immediate future. There was a reason you chose this path and cont'd to perform this job for the years you have. What was that reason? Things change all the time, but it's time for you all to step up for us. Like I said before, this thing is bigger than all of us. In 25-30 years, us newer controllers will have to do the same for the next generation when it's our time.

Comments please! :)
 

pm577

New Member
In terms of the shortages, the FAA has to do something and they're doing it, maybe not in the smoothest, fastest, or efficient time we would like, but they're addressing the problem.
As a 'general applicant', it really doesn't look like the FAA is addressing the problem. They cut pay significantly, and as a consequence they have had massive retirements and shortages in critical areas like New York. You are hearing of controllers working short-staffed, overtime, and fatigued.

I'm optimistic about the future, but only because there will be a new administrator next year. As for right now, I'm planning on surviving the process until it hopefully gets better.

The FAA should never have imposed the huge paycuts that were enacted. If they kept the old pay-scale, they would have been able to retain their experienced staff for many more years, and consequently have a smoother hiring/training process.
 

Brooklyn

New Member
While I will agree that some of the experienced controllers posts can be somewhat jaded, in their defense this "morale" problem has been a long time in the making. They simply cannot just get up and quit their job, they have mortgages, they have children they are putting through college, not to mention, who wants to be unemployed at a time like this? I think the FAA owes it to veteran controllers to give them the respect, pay, and support they are looking for. To my understanding this job started as a career for some and now has turned into simply another "job"! I completely agree that some of the posts are harsh but you must familiarize yourself with their hardships and challenges that they face before you call them whiners......start by going to faafollies.com, that should help! (Sorry Doug:laff:) No really, this forum is just the icing on the tasteless and distorted cake called the FAA. This forum only represents a slice of what controllers really feel. Do some research and you will find that this is pretty much the general consensus right now!
 

pm577

New Member
I have a BS in Political Science and History. I am in my second year of graduate school working on my MBA and MS in Management.
I once heard that sometimes people with college degrees don't do very well in the ATC world because they overanalyze a situation.

I have no idea personally, but with those advanced degrees you invested a lot of money to do something that really doesn't pay a lot. (I'm actually quite confused why someone with those degrees would go into ATC. That's a lot of years of just tooling around in college deciding what you want to do in life.)
 

pm577

New Member
I, being a "general public" candidate (I HATE this OTS tag. It has a negative connotation to me... I for one don't have any aviation experience...
By definition, no aviation experience = off the street.

(I have a PPL, but I still consider myself OTS)
 

AFTOFAAATC

New Member
While I will agree that some of the experienced controllers posts can be somewhat jaded, in their defense this "morale" problem has been a long time in the making. They simply cannot just get up and quit their job, they have mortgages, they have children they are putting through college, not to mention, who wants to be unemployed at a time like this? I think the FAA owes it to veteran controllers to give them the respect, pay, and support they are looking for. To my understanding this job started as a career for some and now has turned into simply another "job"! I completely agree that some of the posts are harsh but you must familiarize yourself with their hardships and challenges that they face before you call them whiners......start by going to faafollies.com, that should help! (Sorry Doug:laff:) No really, this forum is just the icing on the tasteless and distorted cake called the FAA. This forum only represents a slice of what controllers really feel. Do some research and you will find that this is pretty much the general consensus right now!
Those are all biased websites, and the negative stuff you hear in the media comes from NATCA, another biased org. I will be happy to join the union as they represent my best interests and are not allowed go on strike. Honestly though, how do you know how bleak and distorted the atmosphere of the FAA is when you haven't even experienced it yourself? Just a thought and a counterpoint.
 

Brooklyn

New Member
I am not a controller yet, but it does not take a rocket scientist to keep up on the current state of affairs, as well as tour facilities, make contact with union reps, etc. And for you to downplay the climate of the FAA right now is actually really surprising. While Im sure it is not completely despicable for everyone, I think that for a lot of controllers they want change. Do you not agree with that?
 

AFTOFAAATC

New Member
I am not a controller yet, but it does not take a rocket scientist to keep up on the current state of affairs, as well as tour facilities, make contact with union reps, etc. And for you to downplay the climate of the FAA right now is actually really surprising. While Im sure it is not completely despicable for everyone, I think that for a lot of controllers they want change. Do you not agree with that?
Sure I do, but change takes time and I will optimistically be along for the ride. I don't think I'm downplaying the climate of the FAA, I just don't firmly believe everything I read and hear. Especially from one sided orgs. But, like I said, I will be happy and willing to join the union.
 

venividibitchy

New Member
I once heard that sometimes people with college degrees don't do very well in the ATC world because they overanalyze a situation.

I have no idea personally, but with those advanced degrees you invested a lot of money to do something that really doesn't pay a lot. (I'm actually quite confused why someone with those degrees would go into ATC. That's a lot of years of just tooling around in college deciding what you want to do in life.)
Yikes, that's pretty damn presumptuous.
 

Delta Romeo

New Member
Conmant,
Being one of the old-timers, let me addresss some of your questins and observations:
Does it appear to some of you that there appears to be a disconnect between "some" of the experienced controllers and "some" of the controllers-in-training and controllers-to-be? I read a lot of posts on here and often wonder where this stems from. Some current, experienced controllers complain about the state of affairs in ATC with new, inexperienced controllers. I, being a "general public" candidate (I HATE this OTS tag. It has a negative connotation to me), have a few questions for experienced controllers. Before I pose these questions, I want to supply some background on myself. I have flown a couple times and have always been huge on aviation. I have a BS in Political Science and History. I am in my second year of graduate school working on my MBA and MS in Management.
First, I do agree that there is a lot of disconnect between the veterans and the rookies. You are right. At my facility (ATL Tower) we were thrilled when the new folks started showing up. In fact the first and second classes we got were outstanding. But after those two groups, we started to get a lot of young people with attitude. Meanining that they thought they were "owed" this and with no humility at all. They have been (when I say them I do not mean 100%, but probably 80-85%) less than integrity-filled. When something happens, its always someone elses fault, not theirs. They have been difficult to teach b/c they do not want to listen. If you tell someone something (that may save their A**, down the road) they take it the wrong way and file complaints. This is across the board. It used to happen (prior to a couple of years ago), that when an OE happened, the people I worked with were adult about it and took their share of the contributing blame without remorse. I can honestly say , its the repeated and constant ugly attitudes of the newer set that has caused the disconnect at my facility.
Most of us know that the ATC workforce is in transition. This is the same for the government as a whole. The older workforce now or will have in the next few years the option for retirement. For experienced controllers on this site, I often comprehend their views as being overly negative about the industry and sometimes about the people who will be replacing them. I find it interesting too that some of these experienced controllers who criticize either the quality of the applicants or what FAA academy teaches them were in the same position. Let's not forget that many of these controllers who were hired after the strike did not often have the same level of qualifications this new wave of controllers-to-be have (i.e. advanced and college degrees, some college, CTI, military, real-work experience). Sure, I for one don't have any aviation experience, but should that disqualify me for doing something I am passionate about?
I am not negative about this job. That's why I get on these boards and try to give you all the best info I can about the pay and benefits possible. I wish there had been the Internet to help me in the early years! I would highly encourage anyone and everyone, espicailly in this economy, to apply for this job. It has been a great career for me and I have enjoyed every moment. I was a charter member of NATCA, and recenetly quit the union b/c of all the negative propoganda they are putting out. I think it is wrong on all sorts of levels.
The real issue here is that many ATC's may be pissed with the forced labor contract and possibly staffing shortages/pay reductions. I am in full agreement with you there, but please keep in mind that this new wave may never see the amount of money many older controllers enjoy(ed). Hopefully, but it's unlikely. In terms of the shortages, the FAA has to do something and they're doing it, maybe not in the smoothest, fastest, or efficient time we would like, but they're addressing the problem.
Its not a contract, as that would required an agreement by two parties. Its imposed work rules....if you want to be politically correct. And to correct you, the new people coming in get pay raises every year that I do not. In less that 12 years the new folks at my facility will earn as much as I do now. It took me 20+ years to get here. And the augument about, "its not fair that I have to sit next to a guy doing the exact same job, and make less," is BS. Its always been that way! This is nothing knew. Through my entire career there has always been someone next to me making $30 - 40K more than I. Who cares, its still a good living, no matter how you slice it!
Its easy to pick and broadcast on those who did not make it in their facility. If I didn't know any better after looking at some of these posts, I would not believe that anyone could make it. We always dwell on the negative. Focus on what's positive and what you're doing to improve the situation. Why sit and moan about every single thing when you can do something productive about it. If not, why even still stay in the industry, stay in the academy, or stay in the application process?
We have certified many before their time and this is now bitting us in the butt. They are having deals...repeatedly. Of the few that have left ATL, most have done so of their own accord. Meaning they withdrew from training. A few actually were washed out. But they have bent over backwards to try and helps those who had the potential and desire. We have at least 2 right now that should go elsewhere. But the facility is still going thru the motions and giving them time extensions etc. Those that haven't made it have all been giving the opportunity to move themselves to other lower-level Towers. And Ithink our Manager has tried to get them close to home, or to places they wanted to go, if those facilities were unbderstaffed in this process. I think everyone who has left, has been happy about where they went.
I know what I'll hear from some about you haven't experienced it yet or just wait. You know what, I'll do just that and make a rationale decision from my own perspectives. As much as I would like to become an Air Traffic Controller, if everyday I walked into a place I just could not stand b/c of the conditions, pay, etc., I would give it up in a heartbeat. This applies to any job. I believe that I, and many others, in this new wave of controllers-to-be could have fallbacks, especially since our education and work experiences are so diverse.
A lot of people, old and new, have bought off on the negative NATCA campaign. Just get there with a good attitude and remember only you can be responsible for you. Make the most of it and don't get sucked in. (Sometimes thats easier said than done).
These posts are informative, even the negative ones because it lets you know what's really going on with some of the workforce and the issues they hold. The FAA is not perfect and have made many blunders, but like it or not, they're your employers. This isn't to say you give in to every dumb idea they have. Speak up for what you believe in and help the newer generation out, which I know many of you have done. We are grateful, but don't trash the industry now just because you may or may not decide it's not in your immediate future. There was a reason you chose this path and cont'd to perform this job for the years you have. What was that reason? Things change all the time, but it's time for you all to step up for us. Like I said before, this thing is bigger than all of us. In 25-30 years, us newer controllers will have to do the same for the next generation when it's our time.

Comments please! :)
 

conmant

New Member
As a 'general applicant', it really doesn't look like the FAA is addressing the problem. They cut pay significantly, and as a consequence they have had massive retirements and shortages in critical areas like New York. You are hearing of controllers working short-staffed, overtime, and fatigued.

I'm optimistic about the future, but only because there will be a new administrator next year. As for right now, I'm planning on surviving the process until it hopefully gets better.

The FAA should never have imposed the huge paycuts that were enacted. If they kept the old pay-scale, they would have been able to retain their experienced staff for many more years, and consequently have a smoother hiring/training process.
pm577, first off, thank you for your response. However, I would like to address a few of your comments. As a general applicant, why isn't the FAA addressing the problem? I guess I could have been more specific. Regarding the staffing issue, you could say they are. You and I are representations of that.

I fully agree with you about the labor imposed work rules. Someone corrected me with my use of the word "contract". I understand this is one of the root problems associated with massive retirements and such. However and not to lessen that fact, we must not forget that age maximums for experienced controllers were be reached or soon to be. You may be right that if pay wasn't capped/cut, perhaps we would have more experienced controllers stay on board. Again, we would have reached this point of massive hiring/training (NOT FINANCIALLY CAUSING) due to the maximum age requirement.

I join your optimism in hoping for a change due to new political leadership. I respect your opinions and thanks for joining our dialogue.
 

conmant

New Member
No comments, but a suggestion.

Put on a helmet. The rest of the responses are going to hurt.
Hey, thanks Justin538 for your comment. I knew going into this that some of the things I wrote would generate differences and perhaps opposition. But that's okay because we all can learn from others. Despite my feelings now, I always provide an open ear for debate, which this is. Hopefully, they're not too bad, but if so, at least I know we are all passionate. We need folks like this! :)
 

conmant

New Member
While I will agree that some of the experienced controllers posts can be somewhat jaded, in their defense this "morale" problem has been a long time in the making. They simply cannot just get up and quit their job, they have mortgages, they have children they are putting through college, not to mention, who wants to be unemployed at a time like this? I think the FAA owes it to veteran controllers to give them the respect, pay, and support they are looking for. To my understanding this job started as a career for some and now has turned into simply another "job"! I completely agree that some of the posts are harsh but you must familiarize yourself with their hardships and challenges that they face before you call them whiners......start by going to faafollies.com, that should help! (Sorry Doug:laff:) No really, this forum is just the icing on the tasteless and distorted cake called the FAA. This forum only represents a slice of what controllers really feel. Do some research and you will find that this is pretty much the general consensus right now!
Brooklyn, thanks for your comment. I read and understand that low morale has become an issue for a lot of our controllers. I blame that squarely on FAA management. It's their job to address the needs of their employees. They have failed. I really like your statement about many starting this profession as a career for it to only end up like another job. That may be the case for a lot. The only thing I hope is that our controllers don't lose sight of totally deamonizing the profession. We all will suffer as a result of the IWR's and other factors. I certainly sympathize with controllers or ANYONE dealing with work-related and work-causing hardships and challenges impacting family and self.

Have to fully disagree with your comment on "tasteless and distorted". Just think to yourself that in a few months, you'll be employed by that tasteless and distorted agency. Why put in the time and energy if going into already, you feel that the agency, at least in its current state, may not be able to provide everything you're looking for in an employer? You have the power to change what you don't like, remember that.

I've looked at faafollies.com, but remember that it is biased. It's going to tell you what you want to hear. Sometimes, you won't learn any more than you want to learn if you want to hear things you already agree with. I would use your own advice to tell you to do some additional research to get a balanced view of the topics.

I totally disagree with Brooklyn's view that I consider some experienced controllers "whiners". If that came across, I apologize to all. However, I will never bite the hand that feeds me.
 

conmant

New Member
I once heard that sometimes people with college degrees don't do very well in the ATC world because they overanalyze a situation.

I have no idea personally, but with those advanced degrees you invested a lot of money to do something that really doesn't pay a lot. (I'm actually quite confused why someone with those degrees would go into ATC. That's a lot of years of just tooling around in college deciding what you want to do in life.)
pm577, I've never heard of such a thing. So is the FAA making a mistake by requiring new applicants have at least some college and/or a college degree? There is no debate here because regardless of what educational levels a person has, this job can be done by all. Of course, it's not for everyone, possibly including those with degrees and beyond.

I asked myself this before, but aviation is my passion. You have to follow your heart and that often means giving up possibly a bigger salary, but that's okay. Because at the end of my career, I want to look back and be proud that I did something that I wanted to do. It shouldn't matter to you why anyone with any degree or not want to go into ATC, just as long as you know why you want to go into it. Besides, education is expensive, but I look at it like an investment. I don't know how long I would want to be a controller. Who knows, maybe up until the max age, maybe not. But I'll do my best to be prepared for whatever life throws at me beyond air traffic control. Maybe even go into management at the FAA.:)
 

conmant

New Member
Conmant,
Being one of the old-timers, let me addresss some of your questins and observations:
Does it appear to some of you that there appears to be a disconnect between "some" of the experienced controllers and "some" of the controllers-in-training and controllers-to-be? I read a lot of posts on here and often wonder where this stems from. Some current, experienced controllers complain about the state of affairs in ATC with new, inexperienced controllers. I, being a "general public" candidate (I HATE this OTS tag. It has a negative connotation to me), have a few questions for experienced controllers. Before I pose these questions, I want to supply some background on myself. I have flown a couple times and have always been huge on aviation. I have a BS in Political Science and History. I am in my second year of graduate school working on my MBA and MS in Management.
First, I do agree that there is a lot of disconnect between the veterans and the rookies. You are right. At my facility (ATL Tower) we were thrilled when the new folks started showing up. In fact the first and second classes we got were outstanding. But after those two groups, we started to get a lot of young people with attitude. Meanining that they thought they were "owed" this and with no humility at all. They have been (when I say them I do not mean 100%, but probably 80-85%) less than integrity-filled. When something happens, its always someone elses fault, not theirs. They have been difficult to teach b/c they do not want to listen. If you tell someone something (that may save their A**, down the road) they take it the wrong way and file complaints. This is across the board. It used to happen (prior to a couple of years ago), that when an OE happened, the people I worked with were adult about it and took their share of the contributing blame without remorse. I can honestly say , its the repeated and constant ugly attitudes of the newer set that has caused the disconnect at my facility.
Most of us know that the ATC workforce is in transition. This is the same for the government as a whole. The older workforce now or will have in the next few years the option for retirement. For experienced controllers on this site, I often comprehend their views as being overly negative about the industry and sometimes about the people who will be replacing them. I find it interesting too that some of these experienced controllers who criticize either the quality of the applicants or what FAA academy teaches them were in the same position. Let's not forget that many of these controllers who were hired after the strike did not often have the same level of qualifications this new wave of controllers-to-be have (i.e. advanced and college degrees, some college, CTI, military, real-work experience). Sure, I for one don't have any aviation experience, but should that disqualify me for doing something I am passionate about?
I am not negative about this job. That's why I get on these boards and try to give you all the best info I can about the pay and benefits possible. I wish there had been the Internet to help me in the early years! I would highly encourage anyone and everyone, espicailly in this economy, to apply for this job. It has been a great career for me and I have enjoyed every moment. I was a charter member of NATCA, and recenetly quit the union b/c of all the negative propoganda they are putting out. I think it is wrong on all sorts of levels.
The real issue here is that many ATC's may be pissed with the forced labor contract and possibly staffing shortages/pay reductions. I am in full agreement with you there, but please keep in mind that this new wave may never see the amount of money many older controllers enjoy(ed). Hopefully, but it's unlikely. In terms of the shortages, the FAA has to do something and they're doing it, maybe not in the smoothest, fastest, or efficient time we would like, but they're addressing the problem.
Its not a contract, as that would required an agreement by two parties. Its imposed work rules....if you want to be politically correct. And to correct you, the new people coming in get pay raises every year that I do not. In less that 12 years the new folks at my facility will earn as much as I do now. It took me 20+ years to get here. And the augument about, "its not fair that I have to sit next to a guy doing the exact same job, and make less," is BS. Its always been that way! This is nothing knew. Through my entire career there has always been someone next to me making $30 - 40K more than I. Who cares, its still a good living, no matter how you slice it!
Its easy to pick and broadcast on those who did not make it in their facility. If I didn't know any better after looking at some of these posts, I would not believe that anyone could make it. We always dwell on the negative. Focus on what's positive and what you're doing to improve the situation. Why sit and moan about every single thing when you can do something productive about it. If not, why even still stay in the industry, stay in the academy, or stay in the application process?
We have certified many before their time and this is now bitting us in the butt. They are having deals...repeatedly. Of the few that have left ATL, most have done so of their own accord. Meaning they withdrew from training. A few actually were washed out. But they have bent over backwards to try and helps those who had the potential and desire. We have at least 2 right now that should go elsewhere. But the facility is still going thru the motions and giving them time extensions etc. Those that haven't made it have all been giving the opportunity to move themselves to other lower-level Towers. And Ithink our Manager has tried to get them close to home, or to places they wanted to go, if those facilities were unbderstaffed in this process. I think everyone who has left, has been happy about where they went.
I know what I'll hear from some about you haven't experienced it yet or just wait. You know what, I'll do just that and make a rationale decision from my own perspectives. As much as I would like to become an Air Traffic Controller, if everyday I walked into a place I just could not stand b/c of the conditions, pay, etc., I would give it up in a heartbeat. This applies to any job. I believe that I, and many others, in this new wave of controllers-to-be could have fallbacks, especially since our education and work experiences are so diverse.
A lot of people, old and new, have bought off on the negative NATCA campaign. Just get there with a good attitude and remember only you can be responsible for you. Make the most of it and don't get sucked in. (Sometimes thats easier said than done).
These posts are informative, even the negative ones because it lets you know what's really going on with some of the workforce and the issues they hold. The FAA is not perfect and have made many blunders, but like it or not, they're your employers. This isn't to say you give in to every dumb idea they have. Speak up for what you believe in and help the newer generation out, which I know many of you have done. We are grateful, but don't trash the industry now just because you may or may not decide it's not in your immediate future. There was a reason you chose this path and cont'd to perform this job for the years you have. What was that reason? Things change all the time, but it's time for you all to step up for us. Like I said before, this thing is bigger than all of us. In 25-30 years, us newer controllers will have to do the same for the next generation when it's our time.

Comments please! :)
Delta Romeo, thanks for your response. I'm sorry you and your facility have to put up with people like that. Hopefully, the next set of developmentals can reinstill the positives you felt about the first two sets of developmentals.

Your response doesn't give off a negative tone. I said some do. Yeah, the pay hurts a lot of experienced controllers, but I like your positive ending that it is still a good living no matter what.

Thanks Delta Romeo for your insight and advice. I can understand where you are coming from. Hopefully, the new additions to your facility but also nationwide can prove that we are capable of doing a great job at this. I just want to continue to have a safe and efficient system which you guys have paved the way for us to do. I respect you and all controllers because despite all the FAA mishaps, you continue to perform!
 

BoomerSooner77

New Member
I want to set something straight. It appears from what I read that a vast majority of you have never worked in a Union environment before. There seems to be a lot of bashing toward management (anyone not protected by the Union). It's very important that you understand that Management does not dictate rules, how they operate their shops, etc. The contract that is negotiated determines what Management can and cannot do. More oft than not many of the 'agreements' are rediculous and from my experience end up getting Union members in trouble most of the time. Now, I realize ATC is under IWR at this time, but what I am about to say still applies as they still have to be consistent with every Union member (including those who live in right to work states in which you are not required to be a member of the union but are still protected by and required to abide by rules within the contract, you just cannot vote on anything). You have to understand that anytime Management makes a decision on something there will be grievances. So what Management has to do is determine which side of the grievance will they win, and that's the route they more than likely will take. Most of Management in Union shops, myself included, over time tend to avoid any interaction with non management as much as possible to avoid having to respond to a rediculous amount of grievances (at one time I was spending at least 1-2 hours per day just on grievances). So I don't really have time to go on, but in any Union shop I've been involved in or been close to there is and probably always will be a huge divide between Management and Non Management... so as far as I am concerned we all need to get along and stop filing grievances for stupid stuff and save it for the big things!

I know I just made people really mad, but I had to present a position from the "other" side.
 

wve_iii

New Member
I dont know about everyone else but it is nice to read a thread without a bunch of people bashing each other with one liners and all the other BS.

Boomer I do agree with you on the Union stuff. Alot of people bash management but in reality the sup's that you deal with really have nothing to do with contract negotiaitions or IWR. There are some that can be a-holes about the contract or ignore it completely, but once inundated with grievences they usually settle down. Most first level supervisors ive had in the post office have been great, no problems at all
 

pm577

New Member
Yikes, that's pretty damn presumptuous.
Ok, I read this from the well known NY Times article Something's Got to Give (article that inspired Pushing Tin, I recommend reading it)
Controller Zack at NY Tracon is interviewed:

He pauses to appreciate his handiwork -- 10 blips, each three miles apart, heading like geese toward the Newark runway. "Now that's crisp vectoring! Make a plan, make it work, but don't think about the plan. Real educated people, somebody with real smarts, can't do this because they're always pondering. I don't have time for that." A criminal smile lights up his face. "With this job, you will get yourself cornered. The question is: How good are you at getting yourself out?
 
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