ppragman
No pasa nada.
I'm not comfortable saying what I would do for .5 million dollars on a public forum.
I'm not comfortable saying what I would do for .5 million dollars on a public forum.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
As I recall, you often cite supply and demand. If supply and demand is actually the driving factor in such situations, as you often suggest, then how is it at all possible for any pay rate to truly be "unrealistic"?
There are many branches that derive from this question, and I trust you will consider them before responding.
-Fox
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking why the regional pay rate is currently unrealistic to attract the supply of pilots available and why it has not adjusted to do so?
If that is your question there are several factors. Probably the biggest two are the RLA/pilot contracts and competition from other regionals.
While regionals would live to up first year FO pay in order to attract more applicants they are largely prevented from doing so by union contracts, though some find partial work around a such as offering free ATP training and bonuses for pilots with certain qualifications.
The second point is that airlines have to make money and regionals currently face stiff competition and will continue to do so until some inevitable consolidation takes place.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There are two free markets at play in this situation, both driven by supply and demand:
1. The market for regional lift
2. The market for pilots to supply that lift
The second is only an issue if there is demand for the first. Demand for the first only exists if the cost is attractive to the customer (the legacy carriers). If the price gets too high for the lift, the customer is no longer interested, and the second market is no longer relevant.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Met some chicks in another city. Stayed the night instead of going back to work the next morning...called in. Of all the people who answered (no dept head available) it was the store manager. I'm a horrible liar - he ended up just asking "you don't want to come to work today do you?" "Nope."
Totally worth it too!
Hey at least I was responsible and actually called in
.
n57flyguy
Well-Known Member
Side bar: With the increase of pay and bonuses at the regional level, where do you think that floor will be reached till actual shortage is realized? In saying such I suppose I am speaking of elasticity, which is hard considering pilots with more variables than said 'good X' - has this industry yet has seen inelastic demand occur yet to where no matter what incentive, classes are not filled, planes are parked, and understaffed?
(I have not colored charts in a while)
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Not anywhere close. Still a ton of military guys who stay in due to the pension and pay check vs. bailing for a major let alone a regional carrier. I'm sure the new pay will attract a certain subset of those who are "professional instructors", maybe lower end 91 guys flying Barons around for $40k-$50k a year tired of loading baggage for their boss, etc. Part 91 has no minimums for those who have the money to pay insurance on the lower time pilots. Taking a $30k pay cut would be hard to swallow, taking a $10k pay cut that first year maybe not, for a better QOL/long term career advancement.
scooter2525
Very well Member
n57flyguy
Well-Known Member
@wheelsup that has been the inference I have drawn for a while now. I have seen some attrition in the military ranks that I am familiar with, but it seems to an 'unforeseen' economic conditions occurred in 2008 some stayed in and are still riding it out under the premise of "what is a few more years." At a 91 interview I was at this past summer the opposite was true (and we are speaking of a different variable of demographic of where people are in ones career) that the attrition was not a result of the pay cut - although less of on at that.
@Blackhawk I think I brought up one of the real questions (maybe from only the economic standpoint) of where airlines can maintain that balance of perceived elasticity, if it is met - but I think that point would never realistically show itself with the numerous factors determining an airlines decision making to make money, pilots, unions, attrition, overall economic outlook, fill in the blank, etc. Interesting theory but it has "too many hands in the pot" to be a pure analysis. Especially in regards to pilots, we will always fly for more, and still fly for less as history tells us. But at what pay rate will the shortage end - I enjoy the simplicity of that question and bearing some economic crash it will be interesting to see if that can be answered. Additionally, the mantra of airline industry being cyclical in nature is also another part of the mix mostly relating to overall economic performance.
Enjoy it while it lasts, I suppose.
@Blackhawk I think I brought up one of the real questions (maybe from only the economic standpoint) of where airlines can maintain that balance of perceived elasticity, if it is met - but I think that point would never realistically show itself with the numerous factors determining an airlines decision making to make money, pilots, unions, attrition, overall economic outlook, fill in the blank, etc. Interesting theory but it has "too many hands in the pot" to be a pure analysis. Especially in regards to pilots, we will always fly for more, and still fly for less as history tells us. But at what pay rate will the shortage end - I enjoy the simplicity of that question and bearing some economic crash it will be interesting to see if that can be answered. Additionally, the mantra of airline industry being cyclical in nature is also another part of the mix mostly relating to overall economic performance.
Enjoy it while it lasts, I suppose.
ProudPilot
Aeronautics Geek
WheelsUp, I hear you. There are good places, and there are places that the dream still happens. That being said, I worked a number of jobs before I went UAS and my colleagues went straight to the airlines. I know I have made more than them every year since. I have 2 friends at Delta and 1 at United. They do say it's better, but once again I am still making more than them. Money isn't everything, but it is worth something. We have the same debt, the same troubles, but I do get through mine a little more easily.
As Eagle421flyer noted, the industry is volatile. All it takes is for a downturn to furlow people again and you have to start over. Doesn't anyone remember the 2000's? That was just happening to people. It will happen again. If my contract goes away I just move to another company, so far for more money, consistently. I love to fly. It is one of my favorite things to do and I try to stay as involved as I can. However, I also have to weigh the advantageous from the disadvantageous. Right now I have stability and a known schedule, even if it is 50+ hours a week. I am trying to get back into more purposeful flying, but Flight Instructing is a stretch right now, so more than likely looking at Civil Air Patrol for some time with their ISR flights.
What would it take me to come back to the airlines? Common Seniority list and 50K year starting, or 75K without. It can't just be about the money, but that's part of it, with the stability. I haven't left Aerospace, I just found a better pocket.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
It is likely that you would be required to resign your SJI number to do so. I've never not been asked to surrender seniority numbers/other such rights when changing employers.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It actually is not uncommon now for furloughed pilots to not be required to give up their seniority number if hired by some LLCs and regionals. I think ASA kind of led the way on this after 9/11 (may have been a few others first), when we did it for Delta pilots. A bit of "resentment" was incurred when Comair pilots refused to do the same.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Scumbags
amorris311
Well-Known Member
I forgot you got negatively affected by that whole ordeal.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I really did not get it. It's not like a furloughed DAL pilot was making out like a bandit by going to the right seat of a regional.The few Comair pilots I knew were vocally pissed about it but could not do anything.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
EXCUSE ME?
Are you defending what they did? Unlike you, I look in the past to make sure those mistakes aren't made again in the future. It was a vindictive, arrogant, SCUMBAGISH thing to do.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
See, that is the thing. They could have.
