Contract Negotiations and Pilot Shortages

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mastermags said:
The mainline union agenda is to kill the RJ, and it seems to be trending in the right direction, regardless of the strife at the regionals.
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This is great news if true. Can you provide any truth, examples, or even just rumor on what initiatives are happening in this regard?
 
z987k said:
Read this today - "There were roughly two government-approved pilots for every aviator job in the United States in 2014, according to the union," http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/28/us-airlines-pilots-students-idUSKCN0RS2MS20150928 I'd love to see the numbers on that. Because that means there is no shortage.
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A meaningless statistic, since many of us have no desire to fly for the airlines, no matter the pay. Endeavor could offer me $500k as a probie, and I'd still tell them to bite me.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I would say it would probably take somewhere in the $60k per year range to get people motivated enough to pay what it takes to get those ratings and put up with what's required today to get the necessary experience to get hired at a regional. Those wages simply aren't sustainable for a 70 seat aircraft.
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So to give you an idea, Commercial Single/Multi Engine land, CFI, CFII 1350 hours. Granted I'm now short, and BS in Aeronautics. My base is just shy of 65K and I'll make around 90K this year with all of the travel and overtime. I teach in Unmanned Systems. So I'm not even flying right now. Deployed I was a bit over 130K.

I value myself for entry level flight around 60K and expect a career average of 110K and ending around 180K. The airlines can't do that anymore. I still have the school debt and I would like to expand my family. Paying on school debt though I need to make a minimum of 65K to maintain the American way of life (House, living expenses, loans, maybe a little 401K). Anything short and I'm losing. Last offer I had with the airlines was around 18K and they didn't sound confident. Since then I've been in UAS. Pay has been a little stagnant, but sure isn't going down.
 
mastermags said:
The job outlook for people coming out of college these days is pretty poor. If flight training were easier to finance, people would be lining up out the door. They always have.
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Without raising the pay all the fiancees will be too risky to loan to.
 
I know some may think it is semantics to distinguish between "scarcity" and "shortage". Any time you recognize a problem one of the first steps is to properly identify and frame the problem. Not understanding, misidentifying or misunderstanding the problem will usually lead to solutions that tackle the symptom and not the root cause.
Also communication is key in problem solving. We talk about using proper terminology in aviation but it applies elsewhere. Communication only results when the receiver of communication understands what was we game modifies behavior.
 
ProudPilot said:
So to give you an idea, Commercial Single/Multi Engine land, CFI, CFII 1350 hours. Granted I'm now short, and BS in Aeronautics. My base is just shy of 65K and I'll make around 90K this year with all of the travel and overtime. I teach in Unmanned Systems. So I'm not even flying right now. Deployed I was a bit over 130K.

I value myself for entry level flight around 60K and expect a career average of 110K and ending around 180K. The airlines can't do that anymore. I still have the school debt and I would like to expand my family. Paying on school debt though I need to make a minimum of 65K to maintain the American way of life (House, living expenses, loans, maybe a little 401K). Anything short and I'm losing. Last offer I had with the airlines was around 18K and they didn't sound confident. Since then I've been in UAS. Pay has been a little stagnant, but sure isn't going down.
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I would rate my QOL a 10/10 at the airlines and I commute.

In Sept I worked 6 days, two three day trips, red eyes, gone from home roughly 80 hours for the month total including the commute! No, no vacation time used. Just long call reserve.

I made around $10k.

I don't know many other full time jobs that pay as well as this industry does, and work you as little, or let you live anywhere you want.

Unlike others in the industry I actually have a pretty good perspective on what things are like outside working as a pilot and I'm amazed to see people say the things they do. When I was younger I *literally* shoveled horse poop from one pile to the next to earn money for my private pilots license, worked in college (got fired from Home Depot even), etc. My wife works a corporate job, I see what it's like. The corporate job life sucks!

Those at the bottom. Yes, it sucks. Being a CFI sucks. Being a regional FO sucks. Sometimes even being a junior RJ CA can suck, but at least the money is decent.

But keep your chin up. Don't turn your nose up at going to a step up. You're not a CFI forever, or an RJ FO forever. You will move up if you give it time. Very few spend less than a handful of years at the regionals these days, it's possible but not probable.

If you really want to come out ahead, live as cheaply as possible. Run a crashpad or two and live in them. Stuff your money away and invest. One can conceivably walk away after 10 years of working if you do it right, then all the other money is gravy. This industry offers excellent and unique advantages to bettering yourself and giving you the time off to realize it.
 
ppragman said:
I think people are blinded by the dream of making $200k one day, and don't really think about all the interim years. "Oh, it'll be worth it, if I take this job now for next to nothing so that I can have the experience I need to make more later." I'm no better, I've done it more than I'd care to admit, but the truth is, you're not mortgaging your present for your future, you're mortgaging your present for the chance to have the future you want. Ultimately, that's a gamble that may not ever pay off. .
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This is very well said. I was just talking with my wife about this idea the other day. When I started flying at a regional 14 years ago I knew I would put my dues in but that ultimately it would pay off and be worth it. However, 14 years later I'm into my 40's and I'm not so optimistic about it anymore I would be happy if I hit 100k much less 200k! But still hopeful.....
 
Mesa pilots just shot down their TA 86% to 14% with 80% participation.

Main reason from everyone I've spoken to is that there was no real pay raises.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The airlines. American could offer me the same amount, and I'd still say no. The lifestyle sucks. Tons of people who have that ATP certificate feel the same way, and no amount of money would change their mind. That's why ALPA's rhetoric on this subject is ludicrous. There is a pilot shortage. To deny it is ridiculous.
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