Contract Negotiations and Pilot Shortages

  • Thread starter Thread starter Flying Saluki
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Derg said:
Here's an angle that no one has probably elucidated from an outsiders perspective. You can't both volunteer to do something in a union, then turn around and scream about "Well, what's YOUR plan?"
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Then why have it in the Constitution and By Laws that members in good standing can bring forward resolutions? Why do we poll the members? Why do we have contract surveys? Why have recall provisions?

Folks run for these positions as they have a plan to do things there way. That is fine. Sometimes you have folks running against each other with different plans. That is fine too.

However, in this thread someone was saying more money would be needed (in their opinion) for the contract to pass or get a yes vote for them. That is great and fantastic. I am not commenting on the merits on the contract or the vote. However, how do you fix the pay issue when the relationship is different than the direct relationship your pilot group has with the revenue?


Whenever I've heard that, it's indicative of a person who got involved for their own benefit, not the selfless benefit and advancement of the people they represent.
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That is a gross generalization.

Yes, while true for some, I have asked people, 'what can I do to fix this'? I assure you it was because I was trying to get feedback and get that person engaged. I personally have lost money over my career doing union work. Yes, I know there are those that benefit, but not everyone does financially.

You know the type, like the guy that elbowed his way onto the hotel committee in order to approve and reapprove a substandard hotel in a particular location because he had a side hustle going on. Complaints would "disappear" and "Well, you don't understand the alternatives".
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Are you saying that a union volunteer approved a hotel for their own financial benefit?


Not this committee, but the guillotine just brained another person today!
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Oh who?
 
Seggy said:
Are you saying that a union volunteer approved a hotel for their own financial benefit?
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If that sort of thing happens it's up to the membership to get their council to follow VIII.1.A.9 of the Constitution and Bylaws. If you can't get traction start recalling. A union (local level) is only as good as the pilot group that supports it.

And yes, I know that takes work and effort. But it's one's career and they should make the time to protect it.
 
BobDDuck said:
If that sort of thing happens it's up to the membership to get their council to follow VIII.1.A.9 of the Constitution and Bylaws. If you can't get traction start recalling. A union (local level) is only as good as the pilot group that supports it.

And yes, I know that takes work and effort. But it's one's career and they should make the time to protect it.
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And/Or Article 8 of the Constitution and Bylaws.
 
Seggy said:
Oh, I am talking about bringing them up on Article 8 charges as an option as well as recalling them Mr. WVU...
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Yep... me too.

Although I got the citation wrong. Should have been VIII.1.A.10, not (9).

VIII.1.A.10 says:
Code: 
Doing any act contrary to the best interests of the Association or its members.

That's the catch all for filing Article 8 charges. You need a LEC (at a minimum) to file charges, so that's the first step. If the LEC won't step up and file the charges, then you start the recall process to put people in place that will file.

EDIT: True story...
We just had two guys get in a fist fight (well, one punch thrown after a whole lot of posturing) at a "unity building" event. I've been lobby for Article 8 charges against both of them as it completly undermines any sort of "unity" that we are trying to show to the company, but I'm not getting anywhere. Not worth the recall road for this, but if it was somebody putting our crews in a less than desirable hotel location due to personal reasons, I'd be all over that one.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, not really. Negotiating within a single carrier is a lot different than negotiating for something across carriers.
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Assuming I understand your meaning, why would you need to do that? It's just another negotiating objective. The NC presents the proposal to the company just like it would present any other proposal. It would not happen nationally all at once. It would happen airline by airline; pilot group by pilot group.
 
Flying Saluki said:
Assuming I understand your meaning, why would you need to do that? It's just another negotiating objective. The NC presents the proposal to the company just like it would present any other proposal. It would not happen nationally all at once. It would happen airline by airline; pilot group by pilot group.
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And why would you waste your negotiating capital on it, giving up other items, without any guarantee that another carrier's pilot group would do the same later?

This is no different than the NSL and why it has always failed to get off the ground.
 
jtrain609 said:
Is that like Captain Hook eating the alligator?
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image.jpeg
 
ATN_Pilot said:
And why would you waste your negotiating capital on it, giving up other items, without any guarantee that another carrier's pilot group would do the same later?

This is no different than the NSL and why it has always failed to get off the ground.
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Dude, sometimes I think you argue just because you like to argue. Are we discussing "how" or "why"? We can discuss both, but not at the same time.

For now, I'm going to focus on "why".

I'm saying that there may be an opportunity to change the rules of the game. Airlines don't give credit for experience. It's my understanding that there are many in this industry, including myself, who would prefer it otherwise. Assuming that is true, the current environment offers an opportunity to do so. Airlines are having difficulty recruiting. Offering credit for previous experience benefits the employee for obvious reasons. It benefits the company by giving them a recruiting tool. And it removes the economic incentive for mainlines to shift flying from one regional to another, which benefits all. In any event, I think it's something worthy of further exploration.

As to the "how", my answer is "I don't know." But there are some smart people at ALPA who do.
 
Flying Saluki said:
As to the "how", my answer is "I don't know." But there are some smart people at ALPA who do.
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The how is the important part. And I was one of those "people at ALPA" for many years involved in conversations about this very topic, and no, no one has an answer as to how to do what you want. If we did, we would have done it years ago. It's just not feasible.
 
Flying Saluki said:
Dude, sometimes I think you argue just because you like to argue. Are we discussing "how" or "why"? We can discuss both, but not at the same time.

For now, I'm going to focus on "why".

I'm saying that there may be an opportunity to change the rules of the game. Airlines don't give credit for experience. It's my understanding that there are many in this industry, including myself, who would prefer it otherwise. Assuming that is true, the current environment offers an opportunity to do so. Airlines are having difficulty recruiting. Offering credit for previous experience benefits the employee for obvious reasons. It benefits the company by giving them a recruiting tool. And it removes the economic incentive for mainlines to shift flying from one regional to another, which benefits all. In any event, I think it's something worthy of further exploration.

As to the "how", my answer is "I don't know." But there are some smart people at ALPA who do.
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It's like your talking about cold fusion or FTL travel.

The WHY we need it is pretty cool to talk about. But unless you have a pretty good grasp on the HOW part it's nothing more than mental masturbation.
 
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