Considering ATP flight school for pilot training at 34 (no experience)

bRandom said:
Im pretty much determined to follow through this no matter what, and have been on quite a few introductory rides.
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So you were basically looking for us to support your decision to lay out multiple tens of thousands of dollars to ATP so that you could feel like this is a good idea?

Don't buy into the hype of a pilot shortage. There will always be jobs. There will always be someone more senior to you.

Start making some smart decisions by listening to the advice you've been given here instead of using what you want to hear to justify your own actions.
 
bRandom said:
Thank you everyone for the multitude of sincere responses. I have spent many hours meeting with flight schools/instructors, and had come to the conclusion that I would pay out of pocket and start with my ppl, until I realized each lesson was nearing $300... so I feared taking too much time between lessons and having to backtrack in lessons (causing me to pay more overall). Just feeling like I need to hurry and start building hours. Im pretty much determined to follow through this no matter what, and have been on quite a few introductory rides. Im sure it is for me. And although it may be irrelevant in some ways, I constantly practice on computer flight sims and fly FPV radio controlled airplanes. At least the flight sims have familiarized me with all types of instrument flying and pertinent lessons. I honestly feel I have a lot of knowledge already under my belt, as well as all study materials from staledog (jetcareers pilot member). A good family friend (Chip White) who is a manager for flightsafety also seems to believe it is an excellent time for me to pursue this career due to a current need for pilots... so I will just keep moving forward however I can make it happen! Thanks everyone!
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Have you given any thought on how you are going to pay back an addition 75k+ in student loans from ATP? Let me give you the best case scenario for a typical airline pilot route.

Year 1: 20k as a flight instructor
Year 2: 20k as a flight instructor
Year 3: 22k as a regional FO
Year 4: 35k as a regional FO
Year 5: 40k as a regional FO
Year 6: 70k as a regional CA
Year 7: 75k as a regional CA
Year 8: 60k as a major FO
Year 9: 90k as a major FO
Year 10: 100k as a major FO

Keep in mind, this is probably best case scenario. There are guys on this board who have been at regional airlines for 5+ years and haven't seen the left seat. You are likely looking at 5+ years without breaking 50k.
 
mojo6911 said:
Have you given any thought on how you are going to pay back an addition 75k+ in student loans from ATP? Let me give you the best case scenario for a typical airline pilot route.

Year 1: 20k as a flight instructor
Year 2: 20k as a flight instructor
Year 3: 22k as a regional FO
Year 4: 35k as a regional FO
Year 5: 40k as a regional FO
Year 6: 70k as a regional CA
Year 7: 75k as a regional CA
Year 8: 60k as a major FO
Year 9: 90k as a major FO
Year 10: 100k as a major FO

Keep in mind, this is probably best case scenario. There are guys on this board who have been at regional airlines for 5+ years and haven't seen the left seat. You are likely looking at 5+ years without breaking 50k.
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BEST case scenario
 
I did the ATP route and have no regrets. Up here I just wasnt flying enough up here to stay proficient. Flying twice a week at best meant I was taking a step forward and two steps back. So I would have ended up paying about the same amount of money, if not more than ATP. Then right out of ATP I got a job flying back home in Alaska making $40k + per year. There are many options in this industry, so dont lock yourself into one route. Do some research and find the route for you.
 
New new private-insturment training at ATP is not good, even if you were heart set on ATP I'd do my private elsewhere. It totally blew up in their faces.

The loan terms and refund policy are flat out jaw dropping, take a close look. ATP can work for the right person, and be a total financial nightmare for the wrong one (doesn't mean you can't make it in aviation, just not via ATP's and it's at times poor and over the top policy). 7 days a week sounds great at first, even the most hardcore students get burned out, just have to ask yourself if you can learn like that. Some can and it works well, others... not so much.

It is absolutely sink or swim, with some pretty high stakes.
 
Ha ya I guess so... At least hopefully I will enjoy my life. Im sooo sick of painting and doing very intense physical labor at this point I feel like id rather be in even more debt... I really screwed up in college not knocking this out then. Can only move forward. I like to subscribe to the "If you do what you love you will find success" approach so im banking on that... at least I can figure it out and keep everyone posted on my success/fail story and it will be a great example to others in the same situation in the future haha...
Thanks again everyone for your support and I hope everyone here is finding success/happiness in their aviation careers.
Brandon
 
crfguy51 said:
New new private-insturment training at ATP is not good, even if you were heart set on ATP I'd do my private elsewhere. It totally blew up in their faces.

The loan terms and refund policy are flat out jaw dropping, take a close look. ATP can work for the right person, and be a total financial nightmare for the wrong one (doesn't mean you can't make it in aviation, just not via ATP's and it's at times poor and over the top policy). 7 days a week sounds great at first, even the most hardcore students get burned out, just have to ask yourself if you can learn like that. Some can and it works well, others... not so much.

It is absolutely sink or swim, with some pretty high stakes.
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My goal was to try to fly 4 days per week... just thought I would absolutely need a loan to keep up with that rate.
 
For me it was more like....
Year 1 flight instructor 4k
Year 2 flight instructor, house framer, 10k
Year 3 flight instructor, bartender, 14k
Year 4 flight instructor, 15k
Year 5 corporate FO 28k
Year 10 corporate captain 65k
Year 20 corporate captain 100k+
 
Looks good to me... Ill just keep painting houses for 9 more years lol... I have a gf and no plans for children as of now, so I guess I have that going for me.
 
bRandom said:
. at least I can figure it out and keep everyone posted on my success/fail story and it will be a great example to others in the same situation in the future haha...
Brandon
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I think that's why I'm so frustrated with you. The people here are telling you their examples of success and failure based on their experience. They're trying to keep you out of debt, hating life. They're trying to let you know it will take a good ten years after you're certified with your ratings to make decent money.

It just seems to fall on deaf ears.

To each their own, here's your water.
 
I am hearing you, I am just very passionate about aviation as all of you are, and very hopeful and ready to begin a career after getting a useless college degree... literally. Its a difficult situation to be in. I do appreciate the advice from everyone though and take it to heart. I don't want more debt. Maybe the best way is just to pay my way through school out of pocket and take my time, but at 34, that seems to guarantee a "non-career" situation... which means no $ in and all $ out. AKA another hobby :( Which I have plenty of trust me.
 
If I could rewind time I would have followed through with the Air-Force Academy or at least the college commercial program.
 
bRandom said:
I am hearing you, I am just very passionate about aviation as all of you are, and very hopeful and ready to begin a career after getting a useless college degree... literally. Its a difficult situation to be in. I do appreciate the advice from everyone though and take it to heart. I don't want more debt. Maybe the best way is just to pay my way through school out of pocket and take my time, but at 34, that seems to guarantee a "non-career" situation... which means no $ in and all $ out. AKA another hobby :( Which I have plenty of trust me.
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How much flying time do you have right now?
 
mojo6911 said:
Keep in mind, this is probably best case scenario. There are guys on this board who have been at regional airlines for 5+ years and haven't seen the left seat. You are likely looking at 5+ years without breaking 50k.
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Anything less than the best case, is still not great. You can bust checkrides, if it happens 3 times, getting an airline job now is nearly impossible. You can be the most prepared pilot in the world, and still bust a checkride. You can get into a car accident. You might feel fine, but the FAA will decide that you are waiting 3 years before getting a medical again to be safe. You could be involved in some sort of accident/incident while instructing. Might not even be your fault, but it could render you un-insurable for 5 years.

I've met people, just like you, that will never work as pilots. Wasn't their fault, but they will still be paying the debt back for most of their lives.
 
bRandom said:
Ha ya I guess so... At least hopefully I will enjoy my life. Im sooo sick of painting and doing very intense physical labor at this point I feel like id rather be in even more debt... I really screwed up in college not knocking this out then. Can only move forward. I like to subscribe to the "If you do what you love you will find success" approach so im banking on that... at least I can figure it out and keep everyone posted on my success/fail story and it will be a great example to others in the same situation in the future haha...
Thanks again everyone for your support and I hope everyone here is finding success/happiness in their aviation careers.
Brandon
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How do you know you love aviation?
 
That "passion for flying" often fades and you are left with crushing debt. It will leave you bitter and miserable. I've seen it before. At your age, we are just recommending to not incur more debt to pursue that greener grass over the hill. Because in all honesty, it isn't always greener. We were all once just like you. Go get your private without incurring too much debt and just figure out if this is for you or not. Don't just jump into the deep end head first.
 
bRandom,
I understand, as do most of the posters, where you are coming from. However, getting saddled with $75K in debt from ATP is not the best of ideas; especially since you are already carrying a substantial amount of debt.
I understand you want to get this career started and you would like to do it in an accelerated fashion;however, you can't afford to pay as you go and shell out $300/lesson.
May I suggest a different path. Do your training at a local FBO; but apply for a loan through Pilot Finance or another lending institution. Find the right FBO, the right instructor; and they will work with you to get your ratings done in an accelerated fashion. And you will probably spend 30-50% less then you would had you gone with ATP. If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do.
 
You have some of the smartest most honest people in aviation giving you the best advice out there. I wish I had found this site before I signed on the dotted line at ATP back in 2008. My advice is just like theirs. Don't take out another $80-90k+ for this. ATP isn't all rainbows and roses like they want you to believe it is. I went in with my private and instrument done. 2 good friends of mine which started flying the same time I did stuck with the FBO flight school route. The 3 of us all went different routes in aviation but I would say we are all at the same level currently. The difference? They have no debt, and I do. And currently I make more than they do. Especially at your age you need to do this with little to zero debt. And ATP is one price, if you wash out of the program (Very common at ATP) your still on the hook for THE ENTIRE PROGRAM. If your at a local FBO and it isn't working out you just stop, and its only a 15-20k mistake instead of 4 to 5 times that. Not saying thats going to happen to you but just food for thought.

You need to save some $$$ get an extra job, quit your hobbies and devote everything to flying, if thats what you think you want. because that's what its going to take. Your are going to be very disappointed and upset with yourself when you get thru school and have to go back to painting houses to cover that mortgage of a student loan payment.
 
SilkyD said:
bRandom,
I understand, as do most of the posters, where you are coming from. However, getting saddled with $75K in debt from ATP is not the best of ideas; especially since you are already carrying a substantial amount of debt.
I understand you want to get this career started and you would like to do it in an accelerated fashion;however, you can't afford to pay as you go and shell out $300/lesson.
May I suggest a different path. Do your training at a local FBO; but apply for a loan through Pilot Finance or another lending institution. Find the right FBO, the right instructor; and they will work with you to get your ratings done in an accelerated fashion. And you will probably spend 30-50% less then you would had you gone with ATP. If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do.
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This is excellent and sound advice. The instruction you get with ATP is the same content you'd get at an FBO - you train to the exact same PTS. The major difference is that once you do your PPL and IR, you're in the Seminole and it's twin time; that's the bulk of the cost at ATP. If you're hell-bent on an airline gig, ATP can get you the multi-time, but it's CERTAINLY not the only way to get it done. It's just likely the fastest way to get multi time and then into instruction. As the man says - there is Good, Fast and Cheap. Pick two of those.

You can ALSO save a ton of money if you join a flying club vs. using an FBO. Very often, if you can find the right club, the terms tend to be more flexible and most of them rent based on tach time* instead of hobbs, which can save a bunch of money during your primary instruction. A Google search of "Flying Clubs St. Louis" yields a number of results.

@bRandom - you're going to do what you want to do. I'd suggest that seeking more stable employment might make your life easier in terms of budgeting to fly, but I suspect you've figured that one out. I think I've said all I need to at this point - a lot of people have pointed out the traps, and given you several avenues you can look at. Once again - good luck to you.

*Tach time, by the way, means the cost is determined by the amount of time the engine spends at speed vs. the Hobbs meter, which is like a taxi meter. Because you spend a lot of primary-student time doing slow flight and lots and lots of landings, the tach is at a lower setting, thus charging you less.
 
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