Considering ATP flight school for pilot training at 34 (no experience)

bRandom

bRandom

Member
Hello Im trying to become a career pilot and have exhausted the idea of trying to get a loan until I am able to improve my credit situations. It is not in terrible shape, but Im not getting a loan right now and feel at 34 I have no time to wait around for credit to improve. I have a 4 yr. bachelors in Kinesiology and feel I made a mistake not enrolling in the SIU-C aviation program in 2000 originally, but I can only move forward now. Being a pilot in the military or commercially was all I could ever think about since i was very young, and I am absolutely determined to achieve this career change goal.

I recently decided to see if ATP flight school (St. Louis, Missouri) can be of any assistance. I already have over $60,000.00 in student loan debt but this will not stop be from becoming a pilot. It will happen, but I feel I cant wait any longer.

Does anyone have any training through ATP or other suggestions as far as getting myself moving forward towards this goal? The parental co-sign idea seems out of the picture at the moment, although I will continue to pursue this possibility.

I will contact ATP finance today.

Thank you very much for any input on this topic!
 
Get your private pilot license locally while continuing your existing career.

See if you really like flying as much as you think you will and see what kind of aptitude you have. If you really enjoy learning and finish training in a reasonable number of hours, then take the plunge.
 
bRandom said:
Yes, but there is no available financing, and It would take me years to work through it at my current salary.
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I caution you to tread lightly. Using your same words, it will take you (even more) years on your next pilot salary to pay off the burden of additional debt (in the tens of thousands of dollars).

I cannot begin to tell you how many Captains (yes, airline Captains!) I see who are still overcome with debt from flight training. While flying is fun, the joy is quickly taken away knowing you HAVE to fly to pay your multi-hundreds-of-dollars-a-month debt payment. I've seen marriages put on hold because of debt! I've even seen pilots leave the job they loved in order to pay bills.

Treat debt like a hungry lion...not a bad animal, but don't you dare walk lightly around him or take your eyes off him.

I love flying. I hope you will, too. Don't give up on your dream...but allow me to be the first to say be very, very careful with more easy debt.
 
stormchaser said:
I caution you to tread lightly. Using your same words, it will take you (even more) years on your next pilot salary to pay off the burden of additional debt (in the tens of thousands of dollars).

I cannot begin to tell you how many Captains (yes, airline Captains!) I see who are still overcome with debt from flight training. While flying is fun, the joy is quickly taken away knowing you HAVE to fly to pay your multi-hundreds-of-dollars-a-month debt payment. I've seen marriages put on hold because of debt! I've even seen pilots leave the job they loved in order to pay bills.

Treat debt like a hungry lion...not a bad animal, but don't you dare walk lightly around him or take your eyes off him.

I love flying. I hope you will, too. Don't give up on your dream...but allow me to be the first to say be very, very careful with more easy debt.
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What he said


At least take enough hours to solo locally.
 
Oh man... There is nothing about this career that is worth going into massive amounts of debt over. That will be crippling to your ability to save for your retirement in the coming years and at your age I WOULD NOT advise it. I have zero school debt and I still question my career choice from time to time. It can be hard on a family, and the novelty of traveling and "flying airplanes" wears off. It's like that roller coaster ride you loved as a kid... Do it 500 times and see if you feel the same way about it. Let me save you the trouble... You won't. That's not to say that there aren't upsides to being a career pilot (or else none of us would be here) but I would say in your particular situation (34, already in debt) that it is not a good idea. I have been flying for 3 years professionally and haven't broke 35K. And my next career move will leave me making less than that for a couple years. I'm not sure I could make my budget work if I had debt to repay on this salary.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is to go get your private rating. Enjoy flying if you want to fly. I wouldn't pursue it professionally if I was in your shoes. Ymmv
 
ATP made sense in 2007 when 250 hours and a commercial got you a FO job. I would check out 2 year community colleges + continue to work. You should save 20k doing that
 
bRandom said:
Yes, but there is no available financing, and It would take me years to work through it at my current salary.
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It will take you many more years to come close to paying off the debt you will accumulate on top of your current student load debt.

Combined with your current Student Loan Debt (which I doubt you can defer for flight training in a non university training school), your looking at servicing over $110K in debt and you're real only hope of a job is a CFI at $25k? a year until you can build 1500+ and then maybe $35k-$40k as FO. That leaves you enough money to eat three times a week off the dollar menu and live under a bridge (close to the airport as you can't afford a car or its costs).
 
Hi @bRandom. I was you in 2006. You're starting a journey here.

I was you in 2006 - at the time making around $52K a year. I realized that I would take a huge hit in the quality of my life and the debt level I would be carrying. It did not make sense for me to take on a $900-$1200 loan payment on an income that was going to pay me $2500-2700 a month for the first couple of years in the best possible circumstances. I realized that I wanted to be an aviator, but not necessarily an airline pilot - ATP wasn't necessarily going to teach me the former, although they'd definitely get me on the way to the latter. The juice, as they say, wasn't worth the squeeze, to me. To others it was and has been. But not to me.

I was you in 2006 and I was bitterly disappointed at first to realize that the reality of the job and my vision/dream of the job were two very different things. I met as many people as I could and talked to as many as would listen to me. Made some friends along the way. Learned a lot. Realized that the career - at that point in my life - wasn't worth it to me.

That's not to say that it won't be worth it to you, but just consider - very carefully and in excruciating detail - what sacrifices you will be making to pursue the dream. That way, you will go in with your eyes completely open, and you will not be blindsided to the arguably harsh realities that come with being a career changer in the airline world without a significant financial cushion.

I was you in 2006 but decided to get my PPL in 2008. The folks around here were really supportive. It was awesome.

I'm still a PPL. I focused on debt, eliminated it, advanced my career, got married again, and I can honestly say that right now I am leading a charmed life. That's an option available to you, too. I'm going to collect endorsements and experiences the way some people collect comics, wending my way along to being a CFI. Then I'll teach for fun and beer money. Maybe build time and become a contract pilot or something. I dunno. Don't care right now. Enjoying flying when I can and not making it a job. And in a few years, if I build the time right and make some smart decisions about my job, I might change my mind about airlines. Who knows? But at least I will have options. For me, debt is a dreamkiller.

Do your research carefully. Ask lots of questions - even the scary ones that you may not like the answers to. Compare viewpoints - consider that there are lots of flying jobs that aren't airlines. Above all - try like hell not to rationalize things - fight the urge to justify things to yourself which are untenable. Be as honest with yourself as possible about what you're doing.

Then - as you do this - if ATP and/or additional debt is right for you - then I (and others here) will truly wish you the best of all possible luck and hope that you get what you want - it's always nice to see good things happen to people.

Lots of good advice to be had around these parts. Hope this helps a bit on your journey.
 
I generally just lurk but this subject strikes close to home. (for many of us I'm sure)

The aviation itch is terrible and you should scratch it. I would suggest if you haven't flown at all, go right away and do an intro flight with an instructor. The cost is a drop in the bucket of money you will spend in the future, not just in training but in substandard income the first several years of your flying career. You may find right away flying is not for you. Or you may LOVE it!

From looking at some of your prior posts it is apparent you were given poor guidance in the past and have ended up unsatisfied with the result. The idea that a loan is financial "AID" (for you) is destructive to your future. A loan to you is someone elses asset and you will serve them until you get it repaid.

While reading your request for advice I wondered:
How much do you earn and could you work more to fund flying and debt repayment?
Would your parents welcome you home for a couple of years and could you paint (or do other kinds of lucrative work) in that city?
How much does the debt you have cost you?
Have you prepared for the Pvt. pilot written?

That last question is key! You will learn to fly mostly with your nose in a book, especially as you progress through the ratings. Study is inexpensive/free and will save you a ton of money once you start flight training.
 
Good Rod Machado article.....

The Cost of Learning to Fly

At a recent aviation seminar, I listened to a fellow lament the substantial cost of learning to fly. He confessed to spending upwards of $14,500 to obtain his private pilot certificate. Ka-ching! To him, aviation was too expensive for the average Joe. So I asked a few questions about his flight training experience. Here’s what I discovered.
When our friend, Lament Man, signed up for flight training the FBO suggested that he train in the airplane he’d most likely fly after receiving his certificate. That resulted in scheduling a technically advanced (glass cockpit) airplane for his lessons.
When I asked The Lamenter how he’d selected a flight instructor, he said the FBO simply assigned him one—as if they opened a closet, pulled one off a rack and said, “Here, make this fit.” Furthermore, he never used any type of flight simulation device at home to assist in his training. The FBO told him to stay away from desktop simulators because they don’t handle like real airplanes.
Are you hearing the warning klaxons sound? Our friend made choices that dramatically increased the cost of his flight training, most likely doubling the price he paid for his private pilot certificate. Surely there’s a way to earn the private license at less cost, right? There is. Let me explain.
If you elect to do your primary training in a technically advanced airplane (TAA), then you should have a technically advanced bank account. That’s one having a big pipe that moves money from your bank directly to the FBO’s bank. TAAs often rent at twice the cost of traditional two- and four-place aircraft. If you’re on a budget, there’s no good reason to start training in anything but the simplest airplane that you can afford. If that’s a J-3 Cub or an LSA, all the better. Learning in an airplane with traditional gauges instead of a glass cockpit won’t make you less of a pilot. But it will most definitely make you a pilot. As a budget conscious primary student, that is your objective. You can learn to poke buttons on advanced avionics equipment just as easily right after you graduate from private pilot school.
Here is where it’s important to understand our all-too-human nature. People respond to incentives, and flight instructors are people. Given a choice between a TAA and a basic training airplane, and without any input from you, a flight instructor might suggest that you learn in a TAA. And why shouldn’t he? To him it’s exciting, because the cockpit lights up like a Christmas tree on steroids. So, unless you can afford to fly such a machine, you’d better say that there’s no way you’re going to pay for a TAA today. Persist to insist on flying an affordable basic trainer. If the instructor suddenly feigns a long-term illness or claims he’s been called to join the French Foreign Legion, then you’ve just eliminated an instructor who was more interested in flying an airplane for his entertainment than flying with you for your training. Ka-ching! You’ve just saved some money.
Walking into a flight school without any idea of the type of instructor you want and need is also a very bad strategy. This is why you want to be an educated consumer. You want to find a flight instructor who loves to teach, and who uses a very simple and practical syllabus that emphasizes the essentials of stick and rudder flying.
In one sense, some parts of our aviation training industry have come under the influence of a very big Jedi mind trick. What trick is that? It’s the belief that it’s not possible to produce a safe, competent private pilot close to the minimum flight time specified in the FARs. While the reasons for this are far too numerous to elaborate here, let it be said that a private pilot taught primarily with emphasis on stick and rudder skills is far less likely to end up bending an airplane or a few bones. Statistically, nearly half of all accidents are the takeoff, approach, landing, stall and spin type. Good stick and rudder skills are the antidote to these problems.
So how can you identify a good stick and rudder instructor? I suggest you find out how long on average it takes for an instructor’s students—those who train two to three times a week—to obtain their private pilot certificate. Compare these numbers to the national average training time (approximately 70.1 hours) and the FAA minimum time for the private certificate (40 hours). You’re looking for an instructor capable of training closer to the FAA’s minimum than to the national average training time.
Finally, Lament Man’s FBO wasn’t incorrect in stating that a desktop flight simulator doesn’t handle like a real airplane. On the other hand, I’ve flown real airplanes that didn’t handle like real airplanes. When using a desktop simulation device, you’re not trying to replicate the actual flying experience. Your objective is to reinforce the motor, perceptual and cognitive skills you learned on the previous lesson. Any reasonable desktop simulator will serve this function, and such a device can easily reduce the time and cost of flight training by 10%.
Is flight training too expensive? It almost certainly will be if you’re not an educated consumer. So, find yourself a good flight instructor, a two-place steam gauge airplane, some simulation software and you’re in a position to earn a private license at a much more reasonable cost.
 
bRandom said:
Yes, but there is no available financing, and It would take me years to work through it at my current salary.
Click to expand...

There are places where flying is less expensive than others. Do you live in a high cost area? It sounds like your current job doesn't pay that well. Maybe you could find a job doing the same thing in an area of the country where flying is cheaper. You'll have to make sacrifices to follow this career. And don't get married....unless she is wealthy....

Let us know what ATP finance had to say.
 
The question nobody is asking is are you married and do you have kids? It's one thing to destroy yourself economically when it's just you - it's a whole other thing when you're bringing people down with you.
 
bRandom said:
The parental co-sign idea seems out of the picture at the moment
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Is this post real? I only ask because for a PLUS loan with the FAFSA you have to be 18-24. Twenty-five year old's don't qualify because at age twenty-four, you're considered an independent adult. So yeah, at age thirty-four...?

Also at age thirty-four, a bank isn't looking for a parental co-signer. They're just looking for a good co-signer, period. So yeah... the parental co-sign thing, that really kind of keyed me in.
 
@bRandom

What has happened/what have you done/explored in the last 7 months since the thread below and all the advice you were previously given? Have you even taken any flight lessons yet? What happened to all the options that you listed/were considering and the options that members here suggested to you? I am somewhat puzzled.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/want-to-become-at-pilot-at-34.192770/


bRandom said:
First of all, I just want to thank everyone for their responses... Its very nice to have a community of this many qualified individuals giving me their honest opinion, especially considering im not even technically a pilot...yet.
I guess not getting into more debt (of which I already have a huge college debt) would be of importance, but if its all lumped into the same payment (student loans), maybe it would be acceptable haha... I will keep painting and pay for my private locally out of pocket to start. Im ready to "go for it", so if I can get loans through the community college associated with the local field I may do that. I guess wait and see what financial aid options are available to me, and keep painting.... Also i'll spare the flightsim comments... Im a professional musician, and my friend pointed out to me that its like someone saying they want to play music with you, and they have 5,000 hrs. of guitar hero experience haha!
Thanks everyone!
Brandon
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