Considering 121
- Thread starter av8tr1
- Start date
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Hard to answer the personality question without you personally. But I can say most captains don't seem to mind me, and I don't have the best social skills and have unfortunately been good at making enemies in the past...
I can say I haven't really encountered any unpleasant or hostile captains at my company. There is one people talk about as being unpleasant, but I've never flown with him.
However most airlines including mine will let you "bid avoid" captains you dislike so you won't be paired with them. Unfortunately my understanding is that this will not be honored if you are on reserve, since the company won't know what trips/flights they are assigning you ahead of time- that may be different at other airlines.
My company uses a PBS system (preferential bidding) where you can bid for a wide variety of preferences, such as which days to have off, which cities you would prefer to overnight in, etc. You can also look through the bid packet and bid to be awarded specific trips. Personally I just bid for days off. What you are actually awarded depends on if anyone senior to you wanted it.
PBS is a relatively recent thing to my knowledge, and I think some companies may use line bidding, where the company builds lines of enough trips to meet the credit requirement and then pilots choose them in seniority order. If there are none left when they get to you you end up on reserve.
It could be either, and it depends on what your contract's reserve rules allow. Generally speaking there are 3 types of reserve:
-Airport reserve, where you are required to be at the airport (or to be specific, at my employer, the requirement is to be at the plane within 20 minutes if called). At my employer airport reserve is usually an 8 hour shift, and 8 hours is the longest our contract allows but at other companies it may be longer. Almost all reserve is airport reserve at my company but my understanding is most regionals don't use it quite as much.
-Short call reserve, which is a 2-hour call-out at my company- so you have to be at the plane within 2 hours if called. At other companies I've heard of it being anything from a 1hr45 minute to a 3hr call-out. If you live in base you could sit short-call reserve from home, or if you commute from your crashpad or where ever you stay in base.
-Long call reserve- usually has a 12 hour callout, my company doesn't use it but some regionals do.
I believe at some airlines you know what shifts/ times you will be sitting reserve further in advance. At my company, if it's your first day of a reserve block (i.e. if you had the day before off) they will post what times and type (airport vs. short call) 2 days in advance. If it's not the first day they post it at 6:00pm the night before. For instance, suppose you have the weekend off and Monday is your first day of reserve, you get the 5am-1pm airport reserve shift on Monday: that will be posted on your schedule at 9am on Saturday. Then supposed you get the 5am-1pm airport reserve shift again on Tuesday- that will not be posted until 6pm on Monday.
Usually you are not required to pay dues while on probation, but you are correct that the union will not be able to represent you until you pass probation. I'd say the big benefits of it are that with a union, the company is bound by the contract, although how strictly the union can make them abide by it is another issue. So the company can't cut your pay, reduce benefits, etc. without ammending the contract with the union. Also many of the "work rules" are guaranteed in the contract to, such as the minimum days off per month, maximum duration of airport reserve shifts I mentioned above. For instance, our contract at my company requires at least 11 days off- without the contract the company could theoretically give you as few days off as they want as long as they complied with 14 CFR 117. Also now most unionized regionals pay more than SkyWest (the biggest non-union regional), largely because the union was able to negotiate higher pay. So to my mind there are significant benefits to having a union.
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BigZ
Well-Known Member
As I sit in the 121 schoolhouse.....
I've no clue how the job's going to turn out in the long run, but so far the feel has been pretty good. Feels different than the 91/135 I've been to. Mostly due to the size - there's a crapton more people around. Dudes, by huge margin. FAs chorus screaming their thing from the downstairs - probably doing drills or some such. Death by powerpoint indocs are still here, so that's the same. Little less, actually, of it. Hundred plus dudes in the hotel at various stages of training, some drinking at the bar, some studying, some practicing the flows at the paper tigers. It is kinda neat. Very different people too - a very diverse array of ages and backgrounds - and manage to get along just fine.
Unions - probationary year you are not paying the dues, but are for the most part represented by the union as an apprentice member or something along these lines.
I've no clue how the job's going to turn out in the long run, but so far the feel has been pretty good. Feels different than the 91/135 I've been to. Mostly due to the size - there's a crapton more people around. Dudes, by huge margin. FAs chorus screaming their thing from the downstairs - probably doing drills or some such. Death by powerpoint indocs are still here, so that's the same. Little less, actually, of it. Hundred plus dudes in the hotel at various stages of training, some drinking at the bar, some studying, some practicing the flows at the paper tigers. It is kinda neat. Very different people too - a very diverse array of ages and backgrounds - and manage to get along just fine.
Unions - probationary year you are not paying the dues, but are for the most part represented by the union as an apprentice member or something along these lines.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Not the same unless the instructor plops you in front of a laptop, hands you a multiple choice test, and then goes to take calls, do a meeting, and fly a trip while you and the rest of the class click through and fill out answer sheets. Source: 3 135 indocs.
BigZ
Well-Known Member
Minus the trip part because retired pilots
PS My 135 indocs (2 ea) were
1 ea abbreviated
1 ea the full blown week long ordeal by the DO because CP pretended to be busy
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av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
I had one who sat and read the POH to me for three days. Well technically 2.5. I quit half way through the 3rd day. Never saw a paycheck. Yet spent money on hotel, rental car, etc.....
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
This would be me in a nutshell. Large cabin 91 guy goes to a regional and spends a year kicking his own ass for not doing it sooner. If you want to chat about why I'd be happy to elaborate.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I mean, I’m not going to pretend I’ve worked for absolute top notch operations, even as far as 135s go...but you do seem to have a talent for finding the exact opposite of the best and the brightest.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Right? Must be the helicopter pilot in me.
Two other options are a 135 air attack seasonal of course that would put me back in a turbine helicopter and CBP which @MikeD is graciously helping me with the app.
Hard not to go back to rotorwing. It will be a LONG time before 121 will let me afford to buy a helicopter.
skypilot6
Well-Known Member
I never said no 121 for me, but spent many years playing around in the 135 world. Made the switch to a 121 ULCC almost a year ago, and it has proably been the best year of my life. Even with less than a year under my belt I have 16 days off next month and home every weekend except one Sunday.
I do commute, but I live in a small/mid sized northeast city with anywhere from 5 to 8 flights a day to base. For me it has been 99% problem free. And I actually enjoy the leg home as I watch a movie and unwind from the trip. Commuting is what you make of it. There will be times it just doesnt work, and it may take an extra day to get home, if you can accept that you'll be fine.
I do commute, but I live in a small/mid sized northeast city with anywhere from 5 to 8 flights a day to base. For me it has been 99% problem free. And I actually enjoy the leg home as I watch a movie and unwind from the trip. Commuting is what you make of it. There will be times it just doesnt work, and it may take an extra day to get home, if you can accept that you'll be fine.
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Now count the number of guys who've gone to 121 and continued to piss and moan about Unions.
The flying is the same; Aerodynamics, Regs, and Systems don't vary much.
121 has Unions.
'Nuf said.
None that I can think of. Unions are like insurance or lawyers. You can hate it until the day you need them.
poser765
Well-Known Member
hmm that's a tough one. It COULD BE. what's the alternative commute?
Personally, I don't find commuting that bad. But I've had a career of OK commutes.
Basically DFW-Anywhere.
Hammertime
Well-Known Member
DFW? There's got to be an AMR wholly owned with a base there. Envoy?
For sure, but DFW is the senior base, and I qualify to be displaced to PIC, meaning commuting to LGA reserve for a very long time. Even if they hold off on the forced upgrades, it would still take a good while to hold DFW as a FO.
I know I flew into COE years ago after basing in GEG and I remember seeing a flyer in one of the FBOs there for an air attack position in I believe a Cessna Skymaster. I know years ago a pilot that posted here used to fly air attack in a Skymaster in Oregon seasonally and back then I think he said he was making like 40k a summer which was a lot of money at the time compared to what most other places were paying. I often think about doing that the next step as a seasonal position would allow me the time to travel and I'd always have the two big holidays off Thanksgiving and Christmas that I could spend with family. Not to mention you could probably do something laid back and fun the rest of the season or maybe give back a bit and flight instruct. I met a really cool pilot that was flying King Airs in Idaho, former military and Southwest guy that was awesome and I know the USFS is hiring seasonal pilots to be SICs in King Airs. I'll have to dig up the links as their website is a bit lousy, but at least they give you direct contacts so it won't be the cluster that USAJOBS.gov is.
I'm the last guy who will tell you to go 121, but it seems to work for some people. I just wish Horizon and Skywest were a bit more comparable to the Delta and AA regionals in pay and benefits. Horizon seems to have gotten their stuff together a bit, but after the way they fought their pilots and the horror stories I've heard about them putting crews in Baymont Suites type places in rough areas turned me off incredibly and before I didn't know any better years ago they were the top regional I was considering for some reason that in hindsight seems to elude me.
If you haven't applied for them, WheelsUp, does seem to have a great reputation and I can't say enough for working a rotation as an 8/6 is fantastic and you'd keep your hotel points and air miles. I always tell friends considering the regionals to check them out, but I'm not sure if they apply and never hear back or just have their eyes set on the regionals instead. There is nothing like having a set schedule.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I think you'd be surprised on that. If we didn't have the hunting restrictions(and we should), I'd have one instead of my airplane I bet. And I'm an ACMI FO so....
If it ever gets to the point where I'd have to go fly aaaannnnyyyyyttttthhhhhhiiiing other than 121, I'll probably get out of flying. Sure, the flying usually isn't as exotic, but the QOL is unmatched IME. When the phone rings, and I'm at home on my day off, I swipe left and giggle.