Complex aircraft

N

nuball5

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone I have a quick question. If I already have my commercial multi-engine certificate (CMEL) and I want to go for the commercial single(CSEL), would I have to do that single-engine checkride in a complex aircraft?
Furthermore, if I am looking for a CFI-single add on, would this particular checkride also have to be conducted in a complex aircraft. Thanks for your help!
 
Single engine add-on commercial can be done in anything since you already met the requirement for the Multi.

As I understood things (as well as my DPE at the time of my checkride last year), it used to be that for the CFI-A you did need to do at least a portion of the checkride in a complex. I noticed that the wording changed a bit in PTS FAA-S-8081-6C. Is this not required anymore? Seems that the requirement has been removed to me.

According to the old PTS:

FAA-S-8081-6B
Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test
The flight instructor applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61, section
61.45 to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the
practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft must:

1. be of U.S., foreign or military registry that is of the category,
class, and type, if applicable, for the certificate and/or rating for
which the applicant is applying;

2. have fully functioning dual controls except as provided in 14 CFR
section 61.45(c) and (e); and

3. be capable of performing all appropriate TASKs for the flight
instructor rating sought and have no operating limitations, which
prohibit the performance of those TASKs. A complex airplane
must be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing
maneuvers, and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex
landplane is one having retractable gear, flaps, and controllable
propeller. A complex seaplane is one having flaps and
controllable propeller.


Now the new PTS (FAA-S-8081-6C)reads:

Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test

The flight instructor applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61, section
61.45 to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the
practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft must:

1. be of U.S., foreign or military registry of the same category, class, and
type for the certificate and/or rating for which the applicant is applying;

2. have fully functioning dual controls except as provided in 14 CFR part 61,
section 61.45(c) and (e); and

3. be capable of performing all appropriate TASKs for the flight instructor
rating sought and have no operating limitations, which prohibit the
performance of those TASKs. A complex landplane is one having a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A complex
seaplane is one having flaps, floats, and a controllable propeller.
Airplanes that are equipped with a full authority digital engine control
(FADEC) system are considered to have a controllable propeller.

Anyone know more about this?
 
I know at ATP they use a C172 for the CFI single add on training and checkride. But I am not sure where to exactly find the information about whether it has to be in a complex aircraft or not.
 
Your initial commercial has to be in a complex. ATP always does the initial multi-engine commercial, if you do that you can do the single engine add on in a regular 172.
 
Zero1Niner said:
As I understood things (as well as my DPE at the time of my checkride last year), it used to be that for the CFI-A you did need to do at least a portion of the checkride in a complex. I noticed that the wording changed a bit in PTS FAA-S-8081-6C. Is this not required anymore? Seems that the requirement has been removed to me.
Click to expand...

They changed the wording to incorporate FADEC instead of RPM control. The old PTS had overkill on the complex airplane requirement statement.

------------
This section further requires that the aircraft must:
...A complex airplane must be furnished
------------

It is still required because the aircraft still must: "be capable of performing all appropriate TASKs for the flight instructor rating sought and have no operating limitations, which prohibit the performance of those TASKs."
 
So for the CFI-single, even if it is an add on, must be conducted in a complex aircraft? As I stated before I know that ATP uses the 172 for that rating so now I'm confused lol.
 
Zero1Niner said:
Where did you find this in the PTS??
Click to expand...

I was showing the old PTS version.

We've know for years that a complex airplane is required on the CFI ride and the PTS stated that specifically before the most recent updates. Now, nowhere in the CFI PTS does it say that "a complex airplane has to be provided". Why they have taken that statement out but left the definition of a complex airplane is beyond reason. Maybe the government employee went too far with the backspace key - stuff happens.

The CFI PTS does still require that the supplied airplane be able to complete all tasks and all areas of operation. Tasks performed during the CFI ride must be to the commercial pilot skill level. Furthermore, there are commercial pilot maneuvers performed on the CFI ride that require a complex airplane. Therefore, the CFI ride would require one. If this is correct, however, a complex airplane would also be required for a CFI add-on from a MEI or CFII because the CFI add-on requires you to complete landings and emergency operations involving landing gear. If you go on a checkride, complete the complex airplane tasks, but then bust, it has been permissible to bring a non-complex airplane back to finish.

After much searching, I have not been able to find any clear cut evidence to support either argument. So this is all the guidance we have. Everything else is hearsay and "I'll do it this way because they did". The DPE handbook only says that they CFI initial can't be in a jet. A fixed gear jet? Who knows! Making a phone call to the FSDO may clear it up, but I imagine you'ld get a different answer everytime.
 
As far as the CFI Single-add on goes, it does not need to be done in a complex a/c... I just did mine last week in a c-172!
 
Love2Fly said:
As far as the CFI Single-add on goes, it does not need to be done in a complex a/c... I just did mine last week in a c-172!
Click to expand...

What flight instructor certificate did you previously hold? AME?

What if someone went from a CFII to a CFI. CFII didn't require a complex. The required tasks for going from either a CFII or a MEI to a CFI are the same in regards to the landing and emer tasks you have to perform. So if a CFI addon didn't require a complex for your MEI to CFI, neither should a CFII to CFI.

:wtf?:

"Where is the tylenol?" - Clark Griswold
 
I am way confused now. Last year I did my CFII as my initial, then my CFI add-on. I had to do the CFI add-on in 2 airplanes. I used the 152 for most of the ride, but then used an arrow to demonstrate emergency gear extension, and t/o & landings and some other stuff.

So WTF? Perhaps they did loose the complex requirement with the new PTS.

:confused:
 
Zero1Niner said:
And how did 'Love2Fly' pull off taking his without the complex as posted above??
Click to expand...

I was assuming he was MEI to CFI and got credit for the complex. I just can't see the reasoning for the DPE to allow this. Trying to find an answer still.
 
When I was doing my CFI SE add-on a couple months ago (I did my initial in a multi), my CFI argued that the add-on had to be in a complex. The way the new PTS reads I found extremely confusing, so I called the local FSDO to ask the question. They confirmed that only the initial rating has to be in a complex. And then convering all the bases, I asked the DPE the same question the week before the checkride. He didn't miss a beat saying that if I wanted to, all I needed was a 152.
 
PA44-LUV said:
When I was doing my CFI SE add-on a couple months ago (I did my initial in a multi), my CFI argued that the add-on had to be in a complex. The way the new PTS reads I found extremely confusing, so I called the local FSDO to ask the question. They confirmed that only the initial rating has to be in a complex. And then convering all the bases, I asked the DPE the same question the week before the checkride. He didn't miss a beat saying that if I wanted to, all I needed was a 152.
Click to expand...


Crazy...I did the CFII as the initial in a 172, but then did the CFI in 2 different airplanes in order to meet the complex requirement. I suppose I had to do that since the II initial didnt require a complex.

Sounds like things they be a changin'.
 
Well, the inspector had also said in that conversation that since demonstrating proficiency in a complex was accomplished on my initial (MEI) that it didn't need to be demonstrated again with the SE-add-on, so the "initial in a complex" statement might have been a generalization where a complex a/c had already been required. I don't know, I didn't seek clarification for the CFII scenario since it didn't apply there. Since CFII doesn't have takeoff or landing tasks on it, it would seem logical to have to do at least those tasks in a complex a/c when doing CFI-A.

I actually had quite a few weird questions for the FSDO with my add-on. Evidently I was my FBO's first MEI-to-CFI single and no one knew how to handle it. One CFI actually told me my MEI test had been the "add-on" exam, that I hadn't taken a "real initial" CFI practical and that I had to start from scratch. As you can expect, I didn't fly with that one...
 
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are some manuvers for commercial single engine that aren't done on the multi commercial.

Power off 180 accuracy landing comes to mind, for one thing- and for that, I'm pretty sure you need a complex a/c.
 
Mike H said:
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are some manuvers for commercial single engine that aren't done on the multi commercial.

Power off 180 accuracy landing comes to mind, for one thing- and for that, I'm pretty sure you need a complex a/c.
Click to expand...
Wrong.

I give you ATP. Their graduates have a CFI, CFII, and a MEI and they own zero complex singles.

The regs spell it out clearly and if in doubt check out matrix in the appropriate PTS for the "add-on" of a rating.
 
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