Complaining about the money
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OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Ok, out of left field.
Thanks for trying to make another thread into a JS pissing match.
On topic. You will rarely find that the complainers will do anything about it (except complain more). Rarely will you find them being ALPA (or APA, etc) vonunteers.
The tax man cometh.
I think at our peak, we had a combined gross income of (oops, don't want to disclose that) but when you add a median-house, plus a single car payment, plus saving for retirement and NOT supporting your lifestyle with credit card debt, true wealth is a lot further away than many of us realize or will ever experience.
$100G's was something 15 years ago, today, it's maaaaybe a median house and a reasonable automobile.
But it certainly ain't champagne wishes and caviar dreams by far baby!
I think at our peak, we had a combined gross income of (oops, don't want to disclose that) but when you add a median-house, plus a single car payment, plus saving for retirement and NOT supporting your lifestyle with credit card debt, true wealth is a lot further away than many of us realize or will ever experience.
$100G's was something 15 years ago, today, it's maaaaybe a median house and a reasonable automobile.
But it certainly ain't champagne wishes and caviar dreams by far baby!
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Goofy LTs...and you know what a major is, right? A captain without an airline job! HA! Just kidding, guys...yeah love that Enduring Freedom action -15?
Wow, denying jumpseat to non-unions dudes. Guess it will get worse before it gets better.
Yeah, and Doug, you live in a great place for cheap housing ***not***. My girlfriend's last 10 clients (she's in real estate) have been people getting out of California. Granted, I am FAR from a Texas fan, but at least real estate is reasonable.
Wow, denying jumpseat to non-unions dudes. Guess it will get worse before it gets better.
Yeah, and Doug, you live in a great place for cheap housing ***not***. My girlfriend's last 10 clients (she's in real estate) have been people getting out of California. Granted, I am FAR from a Texas fan, but at least real estate is reasonable.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Why not discuss the JS issue?
If a majority of a carrier wants to deny JS privileges to non-union guys . . . well then. . .who is to stop them? Better bet you are a union guy if you want a free lift home - or live in base.
Then again, I'm a simple nobody who doesn't fly for a living yet.
If a majority of a carrier wants to deny JS privileges to non-union guys . . . well then. . .who is to stop them? Better bet you are a union guy if you want a free lift home - or live in base.
Then again, I'm a simple nobody who doesn't fly for a living yet.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Well I certainly will agree with that. We have a "median house" with a small inground pool as the only luxury afforded. I now drive a 1994 Infiniti with all the bells and whistles broken, and my wife drives a 2000 Honda Accord. A far cry from the cars we had just a year ago, but ya know what? I really don't mind. They are paid for and so is everything else I own except the house. So at 32, with no kiddies and no debt, that money goes a long way; About $4K a month to pay for flight training:laff:
The part of your life I am truly jealous of is the travelling you are now doing as the "innanashnul dood". After travelling the world myself in the AF days, I realize how much more valuable those experiences are than owning a nice car, or having a big house, is. Cheers to you for accomplishing so much though:rawk:
Oh and an aside on the Tax Man: My "BIG BOSS", one of the richest men in da werld, admitted the other day he makes 43 Million a year personally and only pays 19% in taxes not due to any "Tax loopholes". He said he was amazed to see that his average employee pays 33%. Yes....the tax man cometh for us "menial" folk. You can find more about Mr. Buffet and his earnings and tx statement on ze net.
The part of your life I am truly jealous of is the travelling you are now doing as the "innanashnul dood". After travelling the world myself in the AF days, I realize how much more valuable those experiences are than owning a nice car, or having a big house, is. Cheers to you for accomplishing so much though:rawk:
Oh and an aside on the Tax Man: My "BIG BOSS", one of the richest men in da werld, admitted the other day he makes 43 Million a year personally and only pays 19% in taxes not due to any "Tax loopholes". He said he was amazed to see that his average employee pays 33%. Yes....the tax man cometh for us "menial" folk. You can find more about Mr. Buffet and his earnings and tx statement on ze net.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Taxes....GGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!! Like the Texas TIF tax on my cell phone bill or the tax that they stopped using 5 years ago, but are STILL taking....or how about my 2000SF house on a .20 acre lot with a tax bill of almost 5 grand!!!! But all these Texas fools say "but you don't pay income tax!". Perhaps they don't consider how much money I would need to make to PAY 5 grand a year in state income tax!!! 
Don't get me started on the roads around here, either! Oh, my bad...is this thread getting hijacked?!? :whatever:
I think I need to head down-range and get me a cha-ching!
Don't get me started on the roads around here, either! Oh, my bad...is this thread getting hijacked?!? :whatever:I think I need to head down-range and get me a cha-ching!
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Its the way that his points are presented that irks people. This thread is not the place to discuss a jumpseat issue. Statements like that out of left field in the middle of a (somewhat) civil thread does absolutely nothing good for the JC community.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
I think Joe has nailed it. How much money is enough? Just a little more.
Look, man, you've got professional athletes -- granted, the supply of people with their kinds of skills is very very low so they're gonna get paid a lot -- saying their pay of $3 million is too low and you know what? Based on market conditions for their skills, IT IS!
Now if folks like that, who make more in a year than the stereotypical 747 captain makes in ten, say they are underpaid, what makes you think a mere $70K a year income is giong to make someone say "I'm getting enough?"
Look, man, you've got professional athletes -- granted, the supply of people with their kinds of skills is very very low so they're gonna get paid a lot -- saying their pay of $3 million is too low and you know what? Based on market conditions for their skills, IT IS!
Now if folks like that, who make more in a year than the stereotypical 747 captain makes in ten, say they are underpaid, what makes you think a mere $70K a year income is giong to make someone say "I'm getting enough?"
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You never know. I was an MEC member at my previous airline and a certified "ALPA cheerleader," but I would have supported such a resolution at the MEC level. I don't see any reason to be providing a professional courtesy to someone that refuses to be a part of the solution.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
So I guess you'd advocate denying the JS to a 5 or 6 year CA at a regional that was non-union? I guess that would mean Seggy and Airdale too? Wow...I must be nuts to want to be involved in this madness. :banghead:
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The pilots at Colgan and Skywest are currently involved in an ALPA drive. I would expect any resolution addressing this subject to include an exception for airlines that are trying to organize.
Velocipede
New Member
I agree 100%. And the funny thing is, the guy introducing the resolution is a former MEC/LEC officer. And your argument is his argument...non-Union carriers are lowering the bar and ruining our profession. So let's not aid and abet them. If they want to ride let them or their non-Union airline buy them a ticket.
Hard to argue with that.
dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
I fly Part 91 so I don't know too much about the union issue except what I read here on JC, BUT, I think it all goes back to the post of people accepting the low paying jobs. (Thats a period at the end!) As long as the regional airlines are filling up classes and not having to cancel flights due to pilot shortage, nothing will ever get done.
Having said that, do I blame the 20 year old low time pilots with no family to support for taking these jobs? No. If I could afford to live on $18-20,000 a year, I would have chosen the airline route. I can't so I didn't... my choice to make.
Having said that, do I blame the 20 year old low time pilots with no family to support for taking these jobs? No. If I could afford to live on $18-20,000 a year, I would have chosen the airline route. I can't so I didn't... my choice to make.
skydog
New Member
It's not the income that is the problem, it is the outgo. According to the US Census Bureau, in 2005 the average household income in this country was just a bit over 46K a year. Somehow, the majority of people in this country get by on considerably less than the 70K that people on here complain about.
There are also many people in this country who get by on considerably less than 46K, so clearly earnings are not the problem. The problem is spendings.
I have many friends and family who are employed in a variety of occupations: teachers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, musicians, IT specialists, retail management, office management, government. Some of the make more than 70K, some make less. But I have never heard a single one of them complain about their pay. They sometimes complain about the cost of living, but at the end of the day they adjust their lifestye so as to be in line with their income.
Contrast that with pilots who, as a group, don't complain about what things cost; rather they complain about what they are paid. They are the only people I have ever met who expect the rest of the world to adjust to their lifestyle, rather than adjusting their own lifestyle to fit their circumstances.
Think about it. When you get right down to the bottom line, what drives a pilot's earnings is the amount of money a passenger spends on a ticket. Everything else derives from that one thing. The pilot's "solution" to the "problem" of "low wages" is that everyone else (i.e the paying passengers) should spend more money on tickets so that the pilot doesnt have to spend less money on whatever.
Flame away!
There are also many people in this country who get by on considerably less than 46K, so clearly earnings are not the problem. The problem is spendings.
I have many friends and family who are employed in a variety of occupations: teachers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, musicians, IT specialists, retail management, office management, government. Some of the make more than 70K, some make less. But I have never heard a single one of them complain about their pay. They sometimes complain about the cost of living, but at the end of the day they adjust their lifestye so as to be in line with their income.
Contrast that with pilots who, as a group, don't complain about what things cost; rather they complain about what they are paid. They are the only people I have ever met who expect the rest of the world to adjust to their lifestyle, rather than adjusting their own lifestyle to fit their circumstances.
Think about it. When you get right down to the bottom line, what drives a pilot's earnings is the amount of money a passenger spends on a ticket. Everything else derives from that one thing. The pilot's "solution" to the "problem" of "low wages" is that everyone else (i.e the paying passengers) should spend more money on tickets so that the pilot doesnt have to spend less money on whatever.
Flame away!
It's not about "income", it's not about "spending", or "cost of living", or about "how the Jones's live on $45k and they're happy so YOU should be too!"
It's about compensation. Compensation for the job being done. Compensation for years of experience, being responsible for a multi-million dollar jet, flying millions of dollars worth of cargo, people's very lives. Compensation for being on reserve, having overnights, etc.
What is it worth to you? What do you think fair compensation is for the job a pilot does? I think everyone's answer to that is different. But, keep this in mind: When a stockbroker screws up, people lose money. When a pilot screws up, people lose their lives.
It's about compensation. Compensation for the job being done. Compensation for years of experience, being responsible for a multi-million dollar jet, flying millions of dollars worth of cargo, people's very lives. Compensation for being on reserve, having overnights, etc.
What is it worth to you? What do you think fair compensation is for the job a pilot does? I think everyone's answer to that is different. But, keep this in mind: When a stockbroker screws up, people lose money. When a pilot screws up, people lose their lives.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Because the thread's called "Complaining about the money" no?
You should change your username to "The Decider"!
No need to say "flame away". No need to splay thyself on the sacrificial boulder.
But if you're comparing the dedication, cost (in some cases) and performance requirements of flying a multi-million dollar aircraft with 19 to 300 lives in it only worthy of slightly above average compensation, I think that's a dangerous attitude for a professional piot.
But if you're comparing the dedication, cost (in some cases) and performance requirements of flying a multi-million dollar aircraft with 19 to 300 lives in it only worthy of slightly above average compensation, I think that's a dangerous attitude for a professional piot.