Compensation for new dispatchers

[Squirrel]

Wait what, this is the airlines. Seniority is everything and it'll always be that way. Would you rather never get a raise?

Ask your MX controllers how their pay is setup. Still would get pay raises. Just everyone would be at the same level.

 

[Squirrel]

This will never happen. That seniority and higher pay is what discourages senior dispatchers from leaving.

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Bidding rights, vacation accrual and most importantly furlough order stops that too.

 

[Victor's_Vector]

To be clear I am talking about top out pay on contracts and not starting salaries. Major starting salaries are what I would expect, but the top outs seem inflated by the unions over time. Not saying they don't deserve good pay, and not saying regional pay is what we are worth. But people on the forum seem to always want more more more out do the contracts and it's never enough for them. How about our police, fire, EMS and teachers make more. It's the attitude that people always deserve more drives me nuts.

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Actually, that's exactly what you said with the following quote in the first reply of this thread: "It's an entry level job with entry level wages." So what's your real opinion? (Thread not go as you thought it would and now your opinion has changed or what?)

 

[Victor's_Vector]

My $.02.

The regional dispatchers are vastly underpaid because the job changed p, slowly seem,times, swiftly st other times, and they weren’t brought along.

For instance, the knowledge base and requirements to get a plane from a traditional regional city pair was much lower than that of the “majors” back in the day. What I mean is, dispatching an airplane from ATL to CSG was much less complex than from ATL to LAX. Just from a knowledge of navigation and en route peculiarities to watching a continent worth of weather versus a few hundred miles. Adding an ocean crossing or crossing several borders and it was expontially more complex.

Then, one day while no one was looking, the regionals ceased being “regional”. For example, suddenly Atlantic Southeast Airlines went from turboprops across a hour from base to flying across the plains states, and the west coast. And doing 2+ hour legs. The pay for knowledge level got left behind. Add the influx of certificates airmen sold on a 6 figure income.. well. Suddenly supply is high. We “dumbed job down” to button pushing in the eyes of CEOs and FAA. And poof. Here we are.

The industry changed, and there was no mechanism for the position to change with it at the regional level. And unfortunately, the only way real change happens in commercial aviation requires a catastrophic event.

The Majors are managing to keep up with the knowledge/pay curve because they can. The regionals, again, are unfortunately and unfairly left behind. It’s not just the dispatchers, it the whole organization.

Again, just my opinion.

Great insight - many thanks

 

[Victor's_Vector]

When you think about it, airlines all logically should be concerned about their dispatch compensation because of how important dispatchers are to their operation. Dispatchers are the ones that make the airline daily operation run. The daily management of the flight schedule, cancellations, equipment changes and managing ATC delays are all things the dispatchers do at every airline. The fuel bill is largely determined by dispatchers as well. You want well educated people making decisions that can make or break your airline.

This disconnect is EXACTLY why I started this thread! This is my question in its most basic terms: "Are regional dispatchers the underpaid heart-and-soul of the airline or overpaid secretaries?" You made your answer to this question quite clear and I appreciate your help in better understanding the situation.

 

[fuelerdx]

Actually, that's exactly what you said with the following quote in the first reply of this thread: "It's an entry level job with entry level wages." So what's your real opinion? (Thread not go as you thought it would and now your opinion has changed or what?)

No, I was saying that you start low and work your way up. The issue with regional pay isn't the starting wage, it is the lack of wage progression. Major scales almost triple in salary but do regionals? There is a big difference between starting and topout pay.

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[Victor's_Vector]

When new Dispatchers stop taking the crappy starting pay at regionals then the pay will go up.

Can't believe people on here thinks major dispatchers are overpaid. College degree doesn't set the standard on what someone gets paid. A person gets paid for their responsibilities and what they can bring to a company. A good dispatcher can save a company millions of dollars each year. A bad dispatcher can cost the same each year.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and what you shared makes all the sense in the world to me. So why aren't the regional airlines smart enough to see this? Don't they have any concept of people being an investment rather than an expense, especially in a role like dispatching where competence can bring a return on investment that is several multiples of the original investment, not to mention keep the company out of wretched spots in the regard to safety & legal/regulatory matters?

 

[Victor's_Vector]

No, I was saying that you start low and work your way up. The issue with regional pay isn't the starting wage, it is the lack of wage progression. Major scales almost triple in salary but do regionals? There is a big difference between starting and topout pay.

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Thanks for clarifying. But I don't see how the issue with regional pay isn't the starting wage; that's a huge barrier to entry for capable people who will take their talents into another spot within aviation or another industry instead of bringing value to a regional airline as a dispatcher. The fact that the starting wage apparently doesn't increase is also an issue, of course, but starting pay is significant deterrent to folks going down the ADX path.

So, in your opinion, dispatchers are really just overpaid secretaries? Unless I'm fundamentally misunderstanding the real role of a dispatcher (i.e., not what's written down but the ACTUAL daily impact of a dispatcher on airline ops), then I'm struggling to see how anyone who is or has done the job can seek to justify regional pay, especially given that the volume of flights worked by a regional dispatcher is most often much higher than those worked by a legacy or major/LCC dispatcher in a given day or shift.

 

[fuelerdx]

Thanks for clarifying. But I don't see how the issue with regional pay isn't the starting wage; that's a huge barrier to entry for capable people who will take their talents into another spot within aviation or another industry instead of bringing value to a regional airline as a dispatcher. The fact that the starting wage apparently doesn't increase is also an issue, of course, but starting pay is significant deterrent to folks going down the ADX path.

So, in your opinion, dispatchers are really just overpaid secretaries? Unless I'm fundamentally misunderstanding the real role of a dispatcher (i.e., not what's written down but the ACTUAL daily impact of a dispatcher on airline ops), then I'm struggling to see how anyone who is or has done the job can seek to justify regional pay, especially given that the volume of flights worked by a regional dispatcher is most often much higher than those worked by a legacy or major/LCC dispatcher in a given day or shift.

In a perfect world b scales wouldn't exist. Unfortunately they do and they aren't as bad with real wage progression. Some people also seek the ability to gain seniority and hold a preferable schedule faster versus major pay. Yes dispatchers hold a lot of responsibility, but so do other professions that start low and then progress with experience. Police officers for example start out similar to regional dispatchers and are responsible for human lives. The difference is they have good benefits and wage progression. It is rough for career changers to enter dispatch, unfortunately that is too true about many careers. I'm not saying starting wages couldn't be higher, but that topout is the bigger issue. My original posts didn't go as in depth as I should have, sorry for any miss leading.

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[Victor's_Vector]

In a perfect world b scales wouldn't exist. Unfortunately they do and they aren't as bad with real wage progression. Some people also seek the ability to gain seniority and hold a preferable schedule faster versus major pay. Yes dispatchers hold a lot of responsibility, but so do other professions that start low and then progress with experience. Police officers for example start out similar to regional dispatchers and are responsible for human lives. The difference is they have good benefits and wage progression. It is rough for career changers to enter dispatch, unfortunately that is too true about many careers. I'm not saying starting wages couldn't be higher, but that topout is the bigger issue. My original posts didn't go as in depth as I should have, sorry for any miss leading.

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Certainly no need to apologize and I'm grateful you took the time to reply multiple times & provide your insight to my questions - thank you!

 

[Flying Saluki]

Well imo dispatchers in a company should be paid all the same as we are all doing the same job. Excluding overrides for international training atc. But everyone of them think company seniority needs to be factored in payscales. Even if a newly hired dispatcher has 15 to 20 years experience.

This. Absolutely this.

I have never understood why unions negotiate multi-step pay scales. What is that 20 year dispatcher doing that the new-hire is not?

In additiona to that, the multi-tier pay scale give a competitive advantage to new entrant companies, who exploit the fact that they don't have top of scale labor costs. This is how the mainlines whipsaw their regional partners against one another. That's how Air Wisconsin lost its United contract.

And yet the unions continue to do it.

One base rate of pay, with overrides for additional qualifications! Reward effort and merit

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and what you shared makes all the sense in the world to me. So why aren't the regional airlines smart enough to see this? Don't they have any concept of people being an investment rather than an expense, especially in a role like dispatching where competence can bring a return on investment that is several multiples of the original investment, not to mention keep the company out of wretched spots in the regard to safety & legal/regulatory matters?

The regional airlines are smart enough to not pay any more than they can get away with. They'd pay less if they could. My beef with the regional is not the airlines, but the newbies who willingly sign on for these wages. I think (at least part of) the reason is that they have no historical memory or context for reference.

I started out in 1996 at the princely sum of $8.78 per hour, and that was one of the HIGHER paying jobs American Eagle was offering $8.25 an hour, Express I/II was offering $17K a year. Atlantic Coast Airlines was offering $10 an hour, but of course, it was Washington DC. I

I was dispatching 37 seat turboprops on short (150-200nm, 45 minute) flights. As another poster said, the skill set required for that job was not as extensive as what is required in today's modern regional airline industry. (I don't even call them airlines. They're small jet providers, but that's a different discussion.). You could almost dispatch flights off of the METAR alone.

$8.25 an hour, adjusted to today's COL brings us to $13.50 hour. To their credit, American Eagle is starting people at slightly more than that, at $14.80 an hour. But when you consider that in the intervening two decades, they've evolved from ATRs and SF3 to CRJ7s and E175s, and they are now flying 3.5 hour transcons. vs. 30 minute puddle jumps, I think it's fair to say that the required skill set has changed. Back then, VOR and ILS were the order of the day. Now it's CAT II/III, GPS, RNP, driftdown, etc.

Consider also that the revenue that is being generated by these flights has gone up 10 fold. By an measure you care to use regional dispatchers are more productive, but that is not reflected in their wages.

 

[Scarebus]

I am really curious to see what is going to become of the regional industry as dispatch becomes more and more of a dead-end career. The word is out about dispatch and the overwhelming majority of current regional dispatchers will never make it to a legacy carrier unless they have a lot of friends/family who dispatch wherever they're applying. Even then it is a long shot as an external.

The Spirit and Allegiant types are still doable but even they are going to wind up with 1,000+ apps each time from desperate regional people with little to no opportunities to advance anywhere.

Either we will see a mass exodus of dispatchers abandoning the profession to make at least equal (probably a lot more) money in virtually any other job out there (and have a better QOL on top of that) or the regionals will be forced to pay A LOT more. But we know the latter will never happen.

My guess is that regionals are going to be stuck with mostly unqualified people happy to work for $14-24/hr for their entire working life. I think we will see that transition in the next 5 years or so IF the hiring scene at the majors continues its current trend, which it almost certainly will.

I was lucky enough to make it to a mid level carrier just before things got really bad. I really feel for my friends still stuck back at my regional. They are very qualified, professional people. They just aren't current AA/DL/UA/WN crew schedulers with no dispatch experience other than having gone to Sheffield 5 years ago. It's just sad to see what our profession has become.

 

[DogwoodLynx]

Regardless of what should be or shouldn't be, all the information is out there before one makes a decision to become a dispatcher.


I knew going into this that I would have to move to find my first job, that pay at said first job was going to be around 14 - 16 bucks an hour (which honestly for a single person isn't all that bad to start especially with OT every now and then), and that I'd have to bust my butt in order to have a chance to move up.


If that doesn't work for you, don't do it.

 

[Dart_8992]

Regardless of what should be or shouldn't be, all the information is out there before one makes a decision to become a dispatcher.


I knew going into this that I would have to move to find my first job, that pay at said first job was going to be around 14 - 16 bucks an hour (which honestly for a single person isn't all that bad to start especially with OT every now and then), and that I'd have to bust my butt in order to have a chance to move up.


If that doesn't work for you, don't do it.

Just because that's how it is, doesn't mean that's how it should be.

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[who'swho]

I am really curious to see what is going to become of the regional industry as dispatch becomes more and more of a dead-end career. The word is out about dispatch and the overwhelming majority of current regional dispatchers will never make it to a legacy carrier unless they have a lot of friends/family who dispatch wherever they're applying. Even then it is a long shot as an external.

The Spirit and Allegiant types are still doable but even they are going to wind up with 1,000+ apps each time from desperate regional people with little to no opportunities to advance anywhere.

Either we will see a mass exodus of dispatchers abandoning the profession to make at least equal (probably a lot more) money in virtually any other job out there (and have a better QOL on top of that) or the regionals will be forced to pay A LOT more. But we know the latter will never happen.

My guess is that regionals are going to be stuck with mostly unqualified people happy to work for $14-24/hr for their entire working life. I think we will see that transition in the next 5 years or so IF the hiring scene at the majors continues its current trend, which it almost certainly will.

I was lucky enough to make it to a mid level carrier just before things got really bad. I really feel for my friends still stuck back at my regional. They are very qualified, professional people. They just aren't current AA/DL/UA/WN crew schedulers with no dispatch experience other than having gone to Sheffield 5 years ago. It's just sad to see what our profession has become.

I think the hiring above the regional level will continue for a little while longer due to retirements, maybe another year or 2. Long term though, IMO the dispatch function is going to evolve in the next 20-30 years to the role of backup pilot when (I think it's only a matter of time) we go to single pilot cockpits. When that happens you'll see mass dispatch hirings that will require a pilot license and a much lighter workload in regard to flight planning. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Flying Saluki]

If you don't think you're worth $30 an hour to dispatch 75 seat RJs, how can you think you're worth $60 to dispatch 150 seat 737s?

That's really what we're talking about here. Because the only difference between a regional and a major nowadays is the number of seats in the back. And even that distinction is becoming blurrier (Bombardier C-Series, anybody?)

 

[manniax]

I think the hiring above the regional level will continue for a little while longer due to retirements, maybe another year or 2. Long term though, IMO the dispatch function is going to evolve in the next 20-30 years to the role of backup pilot when (I think it's only a matter of time) we go to single pilot cockpits. When that happens you'll see mass dispatch hirings that will require a pilot license and a much lighter workload in regard to flight planning. Again, just my opinion.

It's an interesting theory, but the FAA moves so slowly on things I don't know when a change to single pilot cockpits might occur, if ever. I know drone technology continues to evolve, but the FAA traditionally has been behind the curve in adopting new technology standards - not ahead of it. Time will tell I suppose. Biggest argument against it I could see is that if the single pilot is incapacitated, how can you guarantee there is no radio/signal interference preventing the "ground pilot" from sending commands to control and land the plane?

 

[Scarebus]

Single pilot cockpits will never happen. There is no way the FAA would ever allow that. Until human error is never part of the accident chain of events there will always be more than one up front.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

I think the hiring above the regional level will continue for a little while longer due to retirements, maybe another year or 2. Long term though, IMO the dispatch function is going to evolve in the next 20-30 years to the role of backup pilot when (I think it's only a matter of time) we go to single pilot cockpits. When that happens you'll see mass dispatch hirings that will require a pilot license and a much lighter workload in regard to flight planning. Again, just my opinion.

I'm sorry, whut? Back-up pilot?

A 'Perfect Storm' Pilot Shortage Threatens Global Aviation

 

[who'swho]

It's an interesting theory, but the FAA moves so slowly on things I don't know when a change to single pilot cockpits might occur, if ever. I know drone technology continues to evolve, but the FAA traditionally has been behind the curve in adopting new technology standards - not ahead of it. Time will tell I suppose. Biggest argument against it I could see is that if the single pilot is incapacitated, how can you guarantee there is no radio/signal interference preventing the "ground pilot" from sending commands to control and land the plane?

I'm not saying it's the safest or best course. Just saying that's where I think we'll end up at driven by the shortage of pilots. If it happens it would be at a snail's pace getting there. I'm sure when the idea of an autopilot was 1st thought up it was deemed impossible. Now that I've successfully taken the topic WAY off course...