Common myth I been noticing among pilots

[Der_Meister]

^Ha!
add some aileron with opposite rudder and they will every time, though making them spin to the right now that is a hard thing to do.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You know, I've never heard that myth. Maybe I'm mything something?

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

^Ha!
add some aileron with opposite rudder and they will every time, though making them spin to the right now that is a hard thing to do.

I usually max out the aft baggage with problem students, top off the tanks with their tears, full power, pitch to Vne, abruptly apply full right rudder with full aft yoke. Seems to do the trick.

 

[roundout]

Depends on the particular plane. At one operator I worked for we had a 172 that was so out of rig it wouldn't stall.

 

[nosehair]

At one operator I worked for we had a 172 that was so out of rig it wouldn't stall.

That is amazing. I didn't think it possible - that an airplane could be built, that wouldn't stall. I would think you would try to find out how the "out of rig" condition could be duplicated, and the airplane re-certified as an unstallable airplane. GA has been looking for that design for all of my conscious life.

Of course, I'm being a little sarcastic here, but seriously, I would like to know more of this "unstallable" airplane. Just let me get my hands on a 172 that won't stall~ I'll show'er.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

Depends on the particular plane. At one operator I worked for we had a 172 that was so out of rig it wouldn't stall.

Possibly out of rig, you failed to mention what series 172. If you still cant get it to stall this is another one to file in the "your're doing it wrong" box...

 

[trafficinsight]

That is amazing. I didn't think it possible - that an airplane could be built, that wouldn't stall. I would think you would try to find out how the "out of rig" condition could be duplicated, and the airplane re-certified as an unstallable airplane. GA has been looking for that design for all of my conscious life.

Of course, I'm being a little sarcastic here, but seriously, I would like to know more of this "unstallable" airplane. Just let me get my hands on a 172 that won't stall~ I'll show'er.

They have those, they're called ercoupes.

If the up elevator travel is limited you wont be able to stall, only mush, but the down side is that you may not have enough elevator to maneuver in certain loadings.


Sent from 1865 by telegraph....

 

[gotWXdagain]

I almost feel like you want to have an airplane that will stall, learn its stall characteristics, that way you know you can fly the plane to its performance limit if you need to and you know that you're not falling short of the edge of the envelope. That being said, if you're dumb enough to plan, not find yourself there accidentally but actually plan, for the edge of the envelope in a 172, you probably have other issues.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

I guess airplanes only stall at 1g these days...

The majority of inadvertent stall entries occur with load factors above 1g before critical AOA is reached. This would indicate that stall entry speeds would be above the published Vs.

Limiting up elevator travel does not completely "Stall proof" an airplane. Stalls are a function of AOA and it's the elevator's authority that plays a large part in controlling the wing's AOA. By limiting up elevator travel you are mearly limiting the elevator's authority at lower airspeeds where full deflection would be required to achieve critical AOA.

The wing will always stall at the same critical AOA. How it gets there is up to you. How hard do you want to pull at what airspeed?

 

[Surfneric]

Wind calm, and your doing a perfect forward slip to lose some altitude. you get to slow and stall (There is no yawing movement on the nose, however you got full rudder deflection)

Will you spin?]

I'f you think about it, a forward slip is the furthest you can be from a spin, since a spin is entered essentially when you are in a "skidding" type turn or configuration (to much rudder in the direction of the turn). If your in a slip with your left wing down, and you stall, it wont spin since you are already holding in right rudder from the slip in the first place.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

If your in a slip with your left wing down, and you stall, it wont spin since you are already holding in right rudder from the slip in the first place.

Try that in a Bonanza and let me know how that works out for you. Hell, a Cherokee 140 will hand your ass to you. You'll just have a lot more warning before the departure.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Pretty much what 22L said. You can stall anything if you try hard enough. Hell, a friggin kite will hammerhead. Sort of.

 

[msmspilot]

Wind calm, and your doing a perfect forward slip to lose some altitude. you get to slow and stall (There is no yawing movement on the nose, however you got full rudder deflection)

Will you spin? Why does everyone think that you will go in an instant spin if you stall doing a forward slip?

Its amazing how many pilots are amazed when I demonstrate a crossed control stall and we dont spin, but simply just break just like a normal coordinated stall.

Why are CFI's teaching students to look at the ball instead of looking for a yawing motion with wings level?

A spin results from a stall that has a yawing motion, not an "uncoordinated stall"

Am I right here?

I've stayed out of this thread, deciding how I wanted to phrase my answer.

When I was preparing to be a CFI, I took a couple of airplanes out to play with cross controlled stalls and see what happened. You can read the book all day, but seeing is believing. What I found was that if you stall in a skid (bottom rudder), one G, the plane would tuck the wing under and start rotation. If you IMMEDIATELY recognized that for what it was and got unstalled, you could prevent a spin.

If you stall in a slip (top rudder), one G, the plane will do the SAME THING, but it takes a lot longer to develop because the plane will roll over and spin in the direction of the deflected rudder. You have to hold your controls uncoordinated while it rolls over the top for this to happen. I never timed it, but it felt like 4-5 seconds from the time of the stall until I was truly having to do something to prevent a spin (in the planes I flew for this, which were admittedly spin resistant to some by design). While you're correct that a stall from a slip won't cause an immediate spin, for someone who hasn't ever seen a spin and isn't expecting the stall at all, the moments of confusion could cause them to freeze to the point of not acting in time to prevent the spin. I have seen people totally freeze on the controls for less.

As far as your last statement that yawing motion is required, I have seen a TON of incipient spin from people who were not actively yawing the plane, but were uncoordinated. I can't show you a book that agrees with me (I'm too lazy to go grab my Airplane Flying Handbook or Stick and Rudder right now), but I can tell you what a lot of observation has shown me.

 

[Pilot2087]

I've stayed out of this thread, deciding how I wanted to phrase my answer.

When I was preparing to be a CFI, I took a couple of airplanes out to play with cross controlled stalls and see what happened. You can read the book all day, but seeing is believing. What I found was that if you stall in a skid (bottom rudder), one G, the plane would tuck the wing under and start rotation. If you IMMEDIATELY recognized that for what it was and got unstalled, you could prevent a spin.

If you stall in a slip (top rudder), one G, the plane will do the SAME THING, but it takes a lot longer to develop because the plane will roll over and spin in the direction of the deflected rudder. You have to hold your controls uncoordinated while it rolls over the top for this to happen. I never timed it, but it felt like 4-5 seconds from the time of the stall until I was truly having to do something to prevent a spin (in the planes I flew for this, which were admittedly spin resistant to some by design). While you're correct that a stall from a slip won't cause an immediate spin, for someone who hasn't ever seen a spin and isn't expecting the stall at all, the moments of confusion could cause them to freeze to the point of not acting in time to prevent the spin. I have seen people totally freeze on the controls for less.

As far as your last statement that yawing motion is required, I have seen a TON of incipient spin from people who were not actively yawing the plane, but were uncoordinated. I can't show you a book that agrees with me (I'm too lazy to go grab my Airplane Flying Handbook or Stick and Rudder right now), but I can tell you what a lot of observation has shown me.

I think the point the OP wanted to make was that just because your uncoordinated, does not "always" mean you will spin. In our syllabus that we use, it asks us to demonstrate cross controlled stalls. Yet we was not allowed to do spins. I kept asking myself, "how in the world are we to demonstrate crossed controlled stalls without spinning the aircraft?"

One day I was up with the chief instructor and amazingly we did stalls with full rudder in a Cessna 152 (no yaw) and we stalled like normal!! I was amazed. So that is how you can demonstrate crossed controlled stalls yet not spin. They are seemingly unrelated. I just looked up in the AFM and it also states we need yaw to spin. It does not mention being uncoordinated. (The AFM states to go up high to be ready for a spin and to use proper spin recoveries if the cross controlled stall does drift to a stall)

So I went up and practiced this after reading this thread and if you HOLD the cross controlled stall instead of recovering, then the yawing moment will begin and then start spinning. I assume because there is not enough aileron to keep up with the rudder?

Now this was in a 152. I wonder if different planes respond differently.

 

[msmspilot]

I think the point the OP wanted to make was that just because your uncoordinated, does not "always" mean you will spin. In our syllabus that we use, it asks us to demonstrate cross controlled stalls. Yet we was not allowed to do spins. I kept asking myself, "how in the world are we to demonstrate crossed controlled stalls without spinning the aircraft?"

One day I was up with the chief instructor and amazingly we did stalls with full rudder in a Cessna 152 (no yaw) and we stalled like normal!! I was amazed. So that is how you can demonstrate crossed controlled stalls yet not spin. They are seemingly unrelated. I just looked up in the AFM and it also states we need yaw to spin. It does not mention being uncoordinated. (The AFM states to go up high to be ready for a spin and to use proper spin recoveries if the cross controlled stall does drift to a stall)

So I went up and practiced this after reading this thread and if you HOLD the cross controlled stall instead of recovering, then the yawing moment will begin and then start spinning. I assume because there is not enough aileron to keep up with the rudder?

Now this was in a 152. I wonder if different planes respond differently.

I believe that's what I said. You have to hold the cross controls, and it takes (seemingly) forever for a spin to develop out of a stall while slipping, but to say you can't spin from a slip is an inaccurate statement.

 

[rframe]

I'm not trained in aerobatics, so I could be wrong, but isn't holding rudder through a stall into a spin AND the addition of opposite aileron the recipe for a flat spin?

While I think the results will vary widely depending upon the control authority of a given aircraft's design, it seems the purpose of teaching cross-controlled stalls is recovery from the bad attitude before bad things happen... so pushing this too far seems excessively risky?

I don't think I'd want to be get flat in most GA-trainer-type aircraft with limited control authority?

 

[Fly_Unity]

I believe that's what I said. You have to hold the cross controls, and it takes (seemingly) forever for a spin to develop out of a stall while slipping, but to say you can't spin from a slip is an inaccurate statement.

yes, because as both wings completely stall, the ailerons become ineffective and will not have authority to counteract any yawing movement? So I guess the answer is "just depends" as a few has stated on here.

I guess my point was: A spin is caused when one wing is stalled more than the other wing (however that may happen). Not necessarily because we stalled uncoordinated

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

I've stayed out of this thread, deciding how I wanted to phrase my answer.

When I was preparing to be a CFI, I took a couple of airplanes out to play with cross controlled stalls and see what happened. You can read the book all day, but seeing is believing. What I found was that if you stall in a skid (bottom rudder), one G, the plane would tuck the wing under and start rotation. If you IMMEDIATELY recognized that for what it was and got unstalled, you could prevent a spin.

If you stall in a slip (top rudder), one G, the plane will do the SAME THING, but it takes a lot longer to develop because the plane will roll over and spin in the direction of the deflected rudder. You have to hold your controls uncoordinated while it rolls over the top for this to happen. I never timed it, but it felt like 4-5 seconds from the time of the stall until I was truly having to do something to prevent a spin (in the planes I flew for this, which were admittedly spin resistant to some by design). While you're correct that a stall from a slip won't cause an immediate spin, for someone who hasn't ever seen a spin and isn't expecting the stall at all, the moments of confusion could cause them to freeze to the point of not acting in time to prevent the spin. I have seen people totally freeze on the controls for less.

As far as your last statement that yawing motion is required, I have seen a TON of incipient spin from people who were not actively yawing the plane, but were uncoordinated. I can't show you a book that agrees with me (I'm too lazy to go grab my Airplane Flying Handbook or Stick and Rudder right now), but I can tell you what a lot of observation has shown me.

What airplanes did you use?

 

[msmspilot]

What airplanes did you use?

C172, PA28-140, C152

 

[ryan1234]

I would humbly caution everyone that GA training aircraft have different stall/spin characteristics (in respect to slip/skids,etc) than other aircraft such as big engined warbirds, swept wing jets, etc.