Comair Union says "NO"

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I will use a perfect example of what I am talking about. Feb 1, 2007 USA Today had a full page listing by the Delta Connection Carriers. Its states - and I quote -


"
Will YOUR Delta flight take off?

Delta Connection pilots for Comair and ASA are leaving at an alarming rate. With more than 30% of Delta flight hours flown by these pilots, fewer flights and choices may result.

Delta and its regional carriers must STOP
- manipulating bankruptcy to exploit pilot wages and work rules
- engaging in stall tactics that sidestep the collective bargaining process
- placing the burden of inadequate staffing on pilots and their families
-believing that $19,000 a year is a livable wage for any pilot

IT'S TIME DELTA TREATED ITS DELTA CONNECTION PILOTS WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT.

Get the Facts at <A href="http://DCIpilots.alpa.org"" target=_blank>http://DCIpilots.alpa.org"

Correct me if I am wrong, but the ALPA Union at Comair has specifically used ridiculously low first year wages as a lobbying tool against management. Pilots have picketed with these signs, have placed billboards quoting this figure and have placed ads, such as this one, in major US papers.

So then why would you refuse managements offer to fix this particular problem? Because management only wants to do this to bandaid an issue?

I'm sorry, but reguardless of what managements motives are in this case, the pilot group needs to dig their heels in for the long haul, not settle for anything less than fair AND take whatever small victory they may get. This was an opportunity to fix a problem that the Union has been specifically targeting in the media.

Why did they turn it down? Let me give you my opinion on why.

The current pilot group does not want to see something good happen to their fellow new hires without a bone being thrown their way. Plain and simple I'd be willing to bet that is the exact reason why they turned it down. "Why should new hires get a pay raise and we don't get anything!" Its the same attitude that has been expressed already in this thread. I do not disagree with that statement! It isn't fair that new hires get a pay raise and the rest of the pay scale doesn't.

But thats why you need to continue to fight like hell against management. Agree to first year pay raises, but demand better compensation across the board or the current pilot group will take extreme measures to ensure the company suffers.

When you're playing hard ball, you need to slowly pick away at issues until they are all resolved. Settling to raise first year pay does nothing to solve all of the issues the pilot group has. What it does do, is tell management that when reasonable proposals are made to fix issues, then the pilot group is willing to work with management.

The bottom line here on the Union's side, is that by management fixing their first year pay, their number one public eye catching complaint, the Union looses a very strong marketing tool. The public might not understand any of the other legitiment issues, but everyone can understand monetary figures. Because without "$19,000 isn't a livable wage", the pilot group doesn't have anything. They can't go picket with a sign that says " Jet Captains shouldn't make $57,000 a year ". That statement holds no water with the public because the average US worker makes less than that.

If a pilot group is not willing to go against the grain, to take extreme measures, to go against the courts, against those that pull the strings - they will never get what they want. Reguardless of whether its legal or not, if a pilot group decided to walk for one single day - they'd either put the company out of business or get what they want. You either take what management gives you in the way of fixing issues or take it to the extreme. There is no middle of the road and I think history proves that. You need a Union leader with balls, not stubborn headedness.

The same methods that the US Government uses to walk all over and fleece its people are the same methods Corporations use to fleece their employees to drive their dollar up. Until we, as people, stand up to these Corporations reguardless of the legal consequences, the courts will continue to rule in managements favor and we will continue to get fleeced. Its no secret that Americans are easily pushed over and persuaded by those with great power within our own Country.

First of all, glad that we can agree to disagree in a friendly, professional manner.

There is so much I want to say to this, but I'd really like to hear from a CMR pilot on this issue, who isn't on 1st or 2nd year pay.

Soul Brotha' or anyone else, where you at?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Airdale, you keep talking about taking what you can get and then fighting for more later, but you fail to acknowledge that you can't fight for more later after you've given up your only leverage.Sorry, but this is just a perfect example of how many rank-and-file pilots don't understand strategy and how unions are able to make gains.

 

[Airdale]

Airdale, you keep talking about taking what you can get and then fighting for more later, but you fail to acknowledge that you can't fight for more later after you've given up your only leverage.Sorry, but this is just a perfect example of how many rank-and-file pilots don't understand strategy and how unions are able to make gains.

What do I know. I'm just a right seat commuter pilot at a non union prop operator.

 

[Seggy]

Supply and demand

 

[skydog]

sorry to say, but the pay rates for what we do are a joke. if your local everyday Joe knew the real deal with our pay and lifestyles they'd laugh and then be completely freaked out to ever get on an airplane again.

Obviously not. Despite the "low" pay that you are bitching about, here you are going to work for it everyday. If you REALLY felt that way, then you would not be working at Comair or wherever for those "low"wages. And that is exactly what the everyday Joe thinks when they find out about regional pilot wages. They don't think "Wow! that company is really screwing the pilots." They think "Wow! That guy is a real moron to do what he is doing for the money he is making."

This thread officially proves it for me. Pilots are morons. They do a fantastic job on the flight deck, but in the real world they do not have a clue. Here was a chance to basically eliminate first year probationary pay. If Comair had done it, the other airlines would have been forced to follow suit. This in turn may have created upward pressure on first year pay at the majors. It would have cost the union nothing; zip, zero nada, in terms of "negotiating capital." The company was giving it away. But, as it always does, ALPA looks out for the senior members, and throws the junior members under the bus. Now the company is perfectly justified in pointing at the union and saying "See, it's their fault!. We wanted to raise wages, but the union wouldn't let us."

In addition to that, the union is now hurting the company's long term survival. They need to have pilots to fly the airplanes. No pilots means planes don't fly, which means lost revenue. But here's the deal. Delta hasn't changed what it is paying Comair to operate these flights, which means Comair is eating the extra cost, which means they can't afford to give everyone a raise. They could afford to give a raises to the people who needed it most, as they were probably paying tons of OT to cover that open flying anyway.

I'm so glad I am out of this business.

 

[cre8flyer]

Pilots are morons.

:yeahthat:.

To all the morons who believe that unions can use the issue of first year FO wages as leverage to resolve all payscale and work condition issues, all I can say is grow up and get realistic.

Right now, first-year FOs are the only group that has leverage. Everybody else destroyed their leverage by working for those ridiculously low wages in the first place.

The first airline to raise FO wages will have a recruiting advantage. Others will follow. The result will be an upward trend in wages for everyone.

Sorry for everyone who is more senior than a first-year FO, but you have two choices:
1. Hold the first-year FOs heads under water in the hopes that management bribes you to let them breathe
2. Be happy that one industry issue has been (partially) resolved and figure out a different way to gain negotiating leverage for your favorite gripes.

 

[Seggy]

:yeahthat:.

To all the morons who believe that unions can use the issue of first year FO wages as leverage to resolve all payscale and work condition issues, all I can say is grow up and get realistic.

Right now, first-year FOs are the only group that has leverage. Everybody else destroyed their leverage by working for those ridiculously low wages in the first place.

The first airline to raise FO wages will have a recruiting advantage. Others will follow. The result will be an upward trend in wages for everyone.

Sorry for everyone who is more senior than a first-year FO, but you have two choices:
1. Hold the first-year FOs heads under water in the hopes that management bribes you to let them breathe
2. Be happy that one industry issue has been (partially) resolved and figure out a different way to gain negotiating leverage for your favorite gripes.

Thanks for calling me a moron! Really appreciate it.

First Officer wages SHOULD be increased. So should guys who have been in the airline for years.

Raising first officer wages for the first year is a big band-aid to a lot of problems. Airlines are having trouble recruiting, why is that? Hmmmm, maybe if they treated pilots across the board better AND paid us better in all areas, you would have more qualified applicants wanting to apply. Makes sense to me!

Pay us more across the board and treat us better, you wouldn't have any problems recruiting!

Also everyone has a leverage if we all get our a$$ together under one collective bargaining group.

When you get to a regional are you going to refuse to join ALPA and/or complain how bad unions are, why they suck, etc? Or are you going to work to make it better?

 

[zmiller4]

To all the morons who believe that unions can use the issue of first year FO wages as leverage to resolve all payscale and work condition issues, all I can say is grow up and get realistic.

Thanks for the kind words! I don't think that anyone is saying that it's serious leverage, but it's at least one way to use the current state of the industry to the pilot group's advantage. Fixing first year pay only is nearly useless (and sort of a slap in the face) to the vast majority of a company's pilots, but it's incredibly effective for management. They get to say, "look at the concessions we've made!" while at the same time getting an influx of starry-eyed new FO's who are satisfied with their compensation.

2. Be happy that one industry issue has been (partially) resolved and figure out a different way to gain negotiating leverage for your favorite gripes.

Huh. And where--aside from the cycles of supply and demand that are leading to the shortage of pilots willing to work for current rates--are pilot groups supposed to find any type of leverage? The idea of striking with the current administration is laughable, so there goes that.

 

[Soul Brotha']

Max got your PM, sorry I've been a slacker. As far as the issue being discussed, there is nothing to back it up. I personally haven't heard this rumor. There are way too many senior pilots to allow this to happen at OH.

P.S. JC's stock with the pilot group is nothing. 90% of the group think he is a total "Richard" while the other 10% are too stupid to realize it.

 

[cre8flyer]

Here's another couple of thoughts:

Have you noticed how collective bargaining (covering all pilots except first year FOs) has not achieved much over the past several years, or even maintained "status quo", in the way of resolving pay and work conditions?

Do you notice how MARKET FORCES (Seggy said "Supply and demand"), are now achieving (for free) what the unions (who cost the pilots 2% of their pay) can't achieve? (i.e. real wage increases)

Now, could someone explain simply and briefly how collective bargaining has been beneficial to pilots?

 

[Seggy]

Here's another couple of thoughts:

Have you noticed how collective bargaining (covering all pilots except first year FOs) has not achieved much over the past several years, or even maintained "status quo", in the way of resolving pay and work conditions?

Do you notice how MARKET FORCES (Seggy said "Supply and demand"), are now achieving (for free) what the unions (who cost the pilots 2% of their pay) can't achieve? (i.e. real wage increases)

Now, could someone explain simply and briefly how collective bargaining has been beneficial to pilots?

This industry is very cyclical. The past few years we have been in a downward cycle. Hard to have good luck collective bargaining with the industry when things are going down.

Yeah I did say supply and demand. Airlines need pilots, so we should be able to bargain better work rules and pay because of this high demand.

You want a simple explanation how collective bargaining has been beneficial to pilots over the past few years? Take a look at the FEDEX contract, then you can get back to me.

 

[cre8flyer]

Thanks for calling me a moron! Really appreciate it.

Seggy: You're not a moron. I only said you're a moron if you believe that unions can use the issue of first year FO wages as leverage to resolve all payscale and work condition issues.

If you really believe this then. . . I'll retract all I said about morons because you're not one, and I'd be the moron that obviously misunderstands something really big.

Now. . . do you really believe that unions can use the issue of first year FO wages as leverage to resolve all payscale and work condition issues?

 

[Seggy]

A union can use this issue as a bargaining tool for others issues.

It is a spoke in the overall wheel.

 

[cre8flyer]

Thanks for the kind words! I don't think that anyone is saying that it's serious leverage,

OK, you agree that its not leverage - which means that I didn't call you a moron.

. . . but it's at least one way to use the current state of the industry to the pilot group's advantage.

wait a minute. . . you're saying it IS leverage. . . which means I may have called you a moron.



Which is it? Is it leverage or not? IMHO it is no leverage. If you think it is a huge lever, I think you're a moron (which shouldn't matter much to you because who am I anyway. . . : ))

Please note: the term "moron" is used affectionately in all my posts, with all due respect to the honourable mentionees.

 

[cre8flyer]

This industry is very cyclical. The past few years we have been in a downward cycle. Hard to have good luck collective bargaining with the industry when things are going down.

Isn't the idea behind "collective bargaining" to help the little guys in "down cycles"? If they can't help. . . and even cost 2% of pay. . . ???

If collective bargaining isn't any good in down cycles, and isn't needed in up cycles, why is it we tolerate it at all?

Seggy, I requested a simple, brief explanation about the value of unions, not a reference to a FEDEX contract.

 

[Seggy]

Isn't the idea behind "collective bargaining" to help the little guys in "down cycles"? If they can't help. . . and even cost 2% of pay. . . ???

If collective bargaining isn't any good in down cycles, and isn't needed in up cycles, why is it we tolerate it at all?

Seggy, I requested a simple, brief explanation about the value of unions, not a reference to a FEDEX contract.

Actually unions are there for job protection. Insurance for our careers.

So yes they do help us 'little guys' in the down cycles. They are there in the down cycles so the company can't take MORE of our pay, MORE of our time off, and MORE from us in these down cycles. So collective bargaining is there for these down cycles.

The FEDEX contract was negotiated in the down cycle. The FEDEX contract shows you what the value of a union can bring to you.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Actually unions are there for job protection. Insurance for our careers.

So yes they do help us 'little guys' in the down cycles. They are there in the down cycles so the company can't take MORE of our pay, MORE of our time off, and MORE from us in these down cycles. So collective bargaining is there for these down cycles.

The FEDEX contract was negotiated in the down cycle. The FEDEX contract shows you what the value of a union can bring to you.

Exactly, Seggy.

Since the topic of this thread is Comair, I'll use the CMR bankruptcy as the perfect example of what a union (ALPA specifically) can do for pilots during a down cycle. Comair management wanted to completely decimate the CMR contract, leaving a draconian system of pay and workrules. Had the CMR pilots been unrepresented, that's exactly what would have happened. Management, with nothing standing in their way, would have chopped payrates to new lows and left the pilots with nothing in the way of work rules or retirement. Instead, thanks to a unified pilot group with excellent leadership from Captain Lawson and friends, along with ALPA's assistance, the CMR pilots were able to drastically reduce the paycuts and work rule concessions, and they actually received a bankruptcy claim payout to each pilot that made up for virtually all of the pay concessions for the duration of the agreement. The Mesaba pilots actually got a claim payout that exceeded their pay concessions. Yep, that's right: the MSA pilots actually got more money with their "concessionary" agreement thanks to ALPA.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, with an up cycle, you can look to the heady years of '00 and '01. The best pilot contracts in the history of the profession were signed in these days thanks to ALPA. They weren't needed due to supply and demand. There were plenty of pilots applying to DAL and UAL with the old contracts, but ALPA was able to use their leverage as a united group to achieve the best contracts this profession has ever seen. Never would have happened without ALPA.

 

[Seggy]

Exactly, Seggy.

I had good teachers on why a union is so important to this industry and us as pilots

 

[DE727UPS]

Cre8flyer. Are you still at ATP?

Some of this union stuff will make more sense when you get your first airline job.

 

[zmiller4]

OK, you agree that its not leverage - which means that I didn't call you a moron...
wait a minute. . . you're saying it IS leverage. . . which means I may have called you a moron...
Which is it? Is it leverage or not? IMHO it is no leverage. If you think it is a huge lever, I think you're a moron (which shouldn't matter much to you because who am I anyway. . . : ))

Come on, read a little more thoroughly...it's not an either/or thing. I don't think first-year pay is a golden ticket to solving a pilot group's problems, but I can definitely see it potentially providing some leverage.

Out of curiosity, who do you work for?