Comair Union says "NO"

Airdale said:
Let me just say that I do not believe first year pay should equal 2nd year pay. I believe the gap should be closer. As of right now, 1st yr at Comair is $22/hr, 2nd yr is $36/$34(700/100-200). Making the gap a little closer isn't such a bad idea.

Think about how many people don't make the jump to the airlines because of the low first year pay. Its barely livable.

I agree that ALL of the pilots should receive a raise across the board, but I don't really think that is what will attract new pilots. Comair has a shaky future at best, and this fact alone probably deters more people. Raising the pay across the scale will not attract an influx of new pilots, and would only cost the company more money, yet they would be in the same position.

I can definitely see both sides of the story here, and I think managements thinking was along the lines of trying to offer something to new pilots that other carriers don't. A starting salary of $25/hr or higher would certainly set them apart from the Regional crowd.

Ideally, first year pay would increase, and the rest of the pilot group would see a raise shortly there after as well.

Its a tough situation and honestly I'm kind of on the fence about it. First year pay sucks. You're part of a crew responsible for human lives everyday. The training and knowledge required is above and beyond your average job. There is NO reason anyone in this industry should be making less then $25,000 a year.

"Tough it out" and "Suck it up" are poor excuses for a low class wage and a response that I imagine management likes to hear.
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Well, with all that said, why not improve wages and work rules across the board. To attract superior talent?

That to me makes far more sense, then a quick bandaid fix. And I think that is what some of you aren't understanding.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
I suffered through first year wages, so can everyone else.
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I like you Max, but I disagree with that mentality. As a professional pilot group, we should be trying to make things better for those following behind us. A building isn't built from the top down, and neither should the industry fight to improve conditions. It should start from the bottom up. I can only hope that years down the road those behind me get a better starting salary then myself.

Yes, the entire pilot group took concessions to help the company and rightfully so they should see a return on the sacrifices they made. But as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
I say make the bastids pay for the type rating, school, and get decent FO pay if they are complaing about low pay.
 
In a union to get a better contract for the future, its all about leverage. The company has gone to the union and said, "hey, we have a problem". The union should NEVER accept the first proposal thrown at them, it's usually the best deal for the company and a mediocre deal for the pilots. The MEC now says, "ok we see that you have an issue, we will discuss what we want to do to solve that problem."

Now a 5 dollar raise for ALL pilots, (percentage wise helps the lowest paid guys the most) the union might start negotiating on. Maybe along with hotels for unscheduled layovers in base, and a lot of other work rule issues with Comair's contract.
 
Ralgha]That attitude has much to do with the state of our world today.[/quote] [quote=Airdale said:
I like you Max, but I disagree with that mentality. As a professional pilot group, we should be trying to make things better for those following behind us. A building isn't built from the top down, and neither should the industry fight to improve conditions. It should start from the bottom up. I can only hope that years down the road those behind me get a better starting salary then myself.

Yes, the entire pilot group took concessions to help the company and rightfully so they should see a return on the sacrifices they made. But as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.
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I like you to Dale, but I think that my words got misconstrude, possibly by my own fault.

What I'm trying to say is that first year pay has always been low because of what I've understood you're on probation and not a member of the union.

Like Zmiller, I'm okay with first year pay being lower than second year, as long as second year is considerably higher.

First year pay will always be low. But by me saying suck it up, or deal with it is me saying that you knew what it was about (or should of before you got into this career).

I've never been for substandard wages.

But I maintain that a bandaid fix for first year pay is bad when better pay and work rules for an entire work group is far better as an end result.

Hope you get what I'm trying to present.
 
i think the MEC did the right thing whole-heartedly. i'm a first year FO, and have 30 years ahead of me as a pro-pilot (if i'm lucky)....my sights are set on the end prize, not the little crap that mang't or whoever tries to throw at us in order to hide the real problems we are all facing in this industry. funny thing is the running joke for this situation is "mang't wanted to give our pilots a raise, and we told them to go F-themselves." sorry, but i'm with my MEC on this one. People keep saying first year pay is crap...oh yeah, and i guess 2nd,3rd,4th, etc...is not so bad huh. sorry to say, but the pay rates for what we do are a joke. if your local everyday Joe knew the real deal with our pay and lifestyles they'd laugh and then be completely freaked out to ever get on an airplane again.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Doing what I stated previously about raising rates all across the board, and giving 2nd year pilots and up a retro check, would work well.

That, or giving first year pilots a raise, and giving all 2nd year pilots and up a fat retro check!
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Greedy..

Like someone said, leave it better than you found it not this attitude you got yours, now I gotta get mine.

Should I bitch that the guys that get hired a couple of months after me are going to get a 10% pay raise in 2008? Nope. Glad for them.

You guys are acting like the management is going to fall to their knees at the pilots request. Not gonna happen, ever or at least not to the extent you're speaking of.

CMR guys should've taken it and regionals across the US would've followed and then and only then would the issue of first year pay be gone. I guess some here are totally cool with making 19.01/hr to fly 50+ people around. I dont care if it's only first year pay, it's an insult. Soon you'll be saying, "it's only second year pay, third gets way better bro".

Is it really too much to ask that a regional airline pilot make $30,000+ a year like his counterpart at In-N-Out Burger? Get real.

WATCHTHIS

Here you go! Enjoy feeding your family, dog, or living on anything but mac and cheese.
 
meritflyer said:
Greedy..

Like someone said, leave it better than you found it not this attitude you got yours, now I gotta get mine.

Should I bitch that the guys that get hired a couple of months after me are going to get a 10% pay raise in 2008? Nope. Glad for them.

You guys are acting like the management is going to fall to their knees at the pilots request. Not gonna happen, ever or at least not to the extent you're speaking of.

CMR guys should've taken it and regionals across the US would've followed and then and only then would the issue of first year pay be gone. I guess some here are totally cool with making 19.01/hr to fly 50+ people around. I dont care if it's only first year pay, it's an insult. Soon you'll be saying, "it's only second year pay, third gets way better bro".

Is it really too much to ask that a regional airline pilot make $30,000+ a year like his counterpart at In-N-Out Burger? Get real.

WATCHTHIS

Here you go! Enjoy feeding your family, dog, or living on anything but mac and cheese.
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It's called collective bargining for a reason. Meaning everyone benefits or loses. Not just a small percentage of the whole.

I still don't see what so bad about everyone getting a raise with a new CBA and better work rules.

Or everyone getting paid via a retro check, if new hires get a bump in salary!
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
I like you to Dale, but I think that my words got misconstrude, possibly by my own fault.

What I'm trying to say is that first year pay has always been low because of what I've understood you're on probation and not a member of the union.

Like Zmiller, I'm okay with first year pay being lower than second year, as long as second year is considerably higher.

First year pay will always be low. But by me saying suck it up, or deal with it is me saying that you knew what it was about (or should of before you got into this career).

I've never been for substandard wages.

But I maintain that a bandaid fix for first year pay is bad when better pay and work rules for an entire work group is far better as an end result.

Hope you get what I'm trying to present.
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I definitely see your point Max. Like I stated before, I can see both sides to the arguement.

BUT, I think a win is a win and when the pilot group has the opportunity to improve anything, it should be done. I don't see how agreeing to raise first year pay is a loss in any way for the pilot group in the long run. If anything, I think it sends the message to management that says "Hey, now your thinking. Come to the table with more ideas like this, and we will be more willing to negotiate."

I think, and this is me personally, that the Comair group just shot themselves in the foot, and any future negotiations are going to be very rough, because management will always recall "you know that time we tried to raise first year pay?". I hope I am wrong though!

dakovich said:
i think the MEC did the right thing whole-heartedly. i'm a first year FO, and have 30 years ahead of me as a pro-pilot (if i'm lucky)....my sights are set on the end prize, not the little crap that mang't or whoever tries to throw at us in order to hide the real problems we are all facing in this industry. funny thing is the running joke for this situation is "mang't wanted to give our pilots a raise, and we told them to go F-themselves." sorry, but i'm with my MEC on this one. People keep saying first year pay is crap...oh yeah, and i guess 2nd,3rd,4th, etc...is not so bad huh. sorry to say, but the pay rates for what we do are a joke. if your local everyday Joe knew the real deal with our pay and lifestyles they'd laugh and then be completely freaked out to ever get on an airplane again.
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I completely agree that the entire industry pay scales need to be raised. But again I refer to my statement before "Rome wasn't built in a day". Here you have management wanting to increase pay at the entry level. Yes, its managements solution to a company issue, but it just happens to be an issue that IS present across the industry.

I don't care if you're "on probation". That is a LAME excuse for not paying employees what they are worth. If you are a liability in the airplane, you shouldn't be there. Period. First year pay is so low because a lot of people leave the company within that first year, and the company ends up eating training costs. Short of a training contract, the Airlines need to realize that us pilots spend tens of thousands of dollars on training. We need more than $20k a year to survive, even if its just the first year.

No doubt, Comair has a LOT of issues that need addressing and sooner or later management will have no choice but to realize that and work to make changes. But if the pilot group is blatently stubborn, the negotiating process will be very very difficult. Yes we need to stand up as a whole, but we also need to take anything management wants to give us in the way of pay/work rule improvements and continue to fight until the pilot group has won the war.
 
Also - Traditionally the Regionals have been the "Minor Leagues" , a stepping stone. Making $50k a year as a Regional Captain used to be a great salary, because you would be leaving for a Major at any point.

Once again, this is where I believe the 50 seat jets have destroyed the industry. $50k a year for a 4th or 5th yr Captain is no longer a "respectable" wage for the job title because of the aircraft. The problem is, in order for that pay to increase, the pay at the Majors would have to increase a lot.

I think what we're seeing now, is the fact that the Regional Airlines have experienced tremendous growth, while the Majors have been stagnant. The Regional's have closed the gap between them and the Regionals and have almost created "Career" jobs. Some Regionals have pay scales structured so that in 6+yrs, Captains are getting a very nice salary for flying 40-50 seats. Why take a 50%+ pay cut just to go work for a Major and sit back in the right seat for a long time?

Pilots are demanding better pay and compensation at the Regional level, and the management still looks at the pilot group as "using" them to get to the next level, thus they are reluctant to make the investment in pilots whose entire term at the company may be 5-6yrs. The entire industry needs a make over, from top to bottom.
 
Airdale said:
But again I refer to my statement before "Rome wasn't built in a day".
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And Rome will never get built if you squander opportunities like this one just so you can get something as small as a first year pay bump. This is why you need experienced union leadership like Captain Lawson. He's able to think strategically on this and realize that the pilot group has much more to gain in the long run by standing firm and demanding improvements to their entire agreement. Short-sighted thinking will destroy this profession. A long-term strategic plan must be adhered to in order to hold this profession up. Jumping at short-term gains at the expense of your leverage to achieve greater gains would be a big mistake.
 
meritflyer said:
Was he the guy that ensured Comair guys have no chance at getting on with Delta?
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Out of many, many years of union work, there are two things that I'll always disagree with JC Lawson about:

1. His early support of the RJDC

2. and how he handled the Delta furloughee situation that you refer to

He has since completely changed his mind about the RJDC, but he still defends his actions in relation to the DAL furlough situation. I'll never agree with him about it, but I can overlook it because of all the other great work he does for his pilots and for the Association. Overall, JC has been a positive influence on the profession.
 
I'm an outsider (read: newbie who has no business talking about pilot unions), and will also be a first year FO someday, but as much as i hate ramen, I have to agree with what the MEC did. I understand the argument that increasing first year FO pay is a baby step toward a better QOL for regional pilots, but thats not Comair's goal. If the intention of a pay raise were to improve the quality of pilots' lives, then by all means accept, but instead, Comair made a proposal to improve it's own position by making the company more appealing to applicants. This proposed raise was not meant to help the pilots. The MEC didn't tell Comair "we dont want raises", they sent the message that if mgmt wants to improve its ability to hire, then they're gonna have to buck up and improve wages across the board. If management actually cared, then unions wouldnt exist. Instead Comair just checked on the river and the union took advantage. (sorry to be metaphorical, i just so happen to be on pokerstars at the moment)
 
Airdale hit the nail on the head. Neither side sees the other as an investment. The pilots are mostly there to get hours and PIC time and off to Majors/Corporate. So if you were in there shoes, it might be nice to give them all a big raise, but you have stock holders and books to satisfy or no job for them, or even worse, shut down the operations. I agree they make big checks an all that but that's capitalism and it's how this game is played, not the best for sure but it coul be much worse. Yes first year pay sucks, but its like boot camp for pilots, and not like that's keeping people away since airline pilot constantly hits the list of highest paid professions in any money magazine (im sure they are checking th pay stubs of 777 captains) And if everyone is holding out till everyone gets a raise, sit back an get some coffee cause its going to take a while cause as long as your still flying an leaving in 5- years, they arn't going to care. And I can't count how many times I see people on JC say "if your in it for the money your not in it for the right reasons", im not a pilot yet, but im on here to know what im getting into, and its still what i want to do.
 
ion
dakovich said:
Company put a proposal on the table to pay first year FO's at second year pay. it was their intention to try and lure more of the limited number of qualified applicants to work for Comair. Union said unless they plan on giving an equal percentage pay raise across the board to the entire pilot group that they won't sign off on the proposal.
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According to a union rep at comair, this story is nothing more than a rumor. It did not occur.
 
I will use a perfect example of what I am talking about. Feb 1, 2007 USA Today had a full page listing by the Delta Connection Carriers. Its states - and I quote -


"
Will YOUR Delta flight take off?

Delta Connection pilots for Comair and ASA are leaving at an alarming rate. With more than 30% of Delta flight hours flown by these pilots, fewer flights and choices may result.

Delta and its regional carriers must STOP
- manipulating bankruptcy to exploit pilot wages and work rules
- engaging in stall tactics that sidestep the collective bargaining process
- placing the burden of inadequate staffing on pilots and their families
-believing that $19,000 a year is a livable wage for any pilot

IT'S TIME DELTA TREATED ITS DELTA CONNECTION PILOTS WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT.

Get the Facts at http://DCIpilots.alpa.org"

Correct me if I am wrong, but the ALPA Union at Comair has specifically used ridiculously low first year wages as a lobbying tool against management. Pilots have picketed with these signs, have placed billboards quoting this figure and have placed ads, such as this one, in major US papers.

So then why would you refuse managements offer to fix this particular problem? Because management only wants to do this to bandaid an issue?

I'm sorry, but reguardless of what managements motives are in this case, the pilot group needs to dig their heels in for the long haul, not settle for anything less than fair AND take whatever small victory they may get. This was an opportunity to fix a problem that the Union has been specifically targeting in the media.

Why did they turn it down? Let me give you my opinion on why.

The current pilot group does not want to see something good happen to their fellow new hires without a bone being thrown their way. Plain and simple I'd be willing to bet that is the exact reason why they turned it down. "Why should new hires get a pay raise and we don't get anything!" Its the same attitude that has been expressed already in this thread. I do not disagree with that statement! It isn't fair that new hires get a pay raise and the rest of the pay scale doesn't.

But thats why you need to continue to fight like hell against management. Agree to first year pay raises, but demand better compensation across the board or the current pilot group will take extreme measures to ensure the company suffers.

When you're playing hard ball, you need to slowly pick away at issues until they are all resolved. Settling to raise first year pay does nothing to solve all of the issues the pilot group has. What it does do, is tell management that when reasonable proposals are made to fix issues, then the pilot group is willing to work with management.

The bottom line here on the Union's side, is that by management fixing their first year pay, their number one public eye catching complaint, the Union looses a very strong marketing tool. The public might not understand any of the other legitiment issues, but everyone can understand monetary figures. Because without "$19,000 isn't a livable wage", the pilot group doesn't have anything. They can't go picket with a sign that says " Jet Captains shouldn't make $57,000 a year ". That statement holds no water with the public because the average US worker makes less than that.

If a pilot group is not willing to go against the grain, to take extreme measures, to go against the courts, against those that pull the strings - they will never get what they want. Reguardless of whether its legal or not, if a pilot group decided to walk for one single day - they'd either put the company out of business or get what they want. You either take what management gives you in the way of fixing issues or take it to the extreme. There is no middle of the road and I think history proves that. You need a Union leader with balls, not stubborn headedness.

The same methods that the US Government uses to walk all over and fleece its people are the same methods Corporations use to fleece their employees to drive their dollar up. Until we, as people, stand up to these Corporations reguardless of the legal consequences, the courts will continue to rule in managements favor and we will continue to get fleeced. Its no secret that Americans are easily pushed over and persuaded by those with great power within our own Country.
 
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