Comair 5191/Eyewitness Animations

When I was learning to fly, the Owner of the flight school, himself a Commercial pilot for a legacy carrier, had in place procedures, one of them was to verbally ID and announce loudly the departure runway, set the bug on the DG to runway Heading and check etc... + everything had to be written on a card (departure brief ). I remember some people even some CFI's) making fun of those procedures, laughing about the "small planes" and the fact that the airport (s) only had one runway so according to them "we don't need to do that because we are not an airline". I thank him for having etched these habits on my brain. To this very day I subconsciously perform them...
 
Maybe if you heavily apply braking.... But as Costanza said, it greatly increases landing distance. Flaps 45 to 75 is quite the increase in drag.

The runway was also wet and they also had a tailwind on landing. NTSB had stated that if they had just tried to stop the plane they probably would have overrun the end of the runway by a couple hundred feet, but most likely everyone would have survived.
 
Yeah, I also thought after the late 80s/early 90s only transcripts were produced.

I've heard the CVR for 5191 went on for a few minutes after and you could hear people screaming in the cabin, is that true?
I doubt it. The few passengers and the FA that survived the impact where overcome by smoke within seconds of the aircraft coming to rest per the accident report.
 
I just did some reading up on that Bro accident. Apparently they weren't flying a minimum icing speed? Was it in VMC/IMC conditions? It's kind of hard to tell what exactly happened.

They were in IMC and accumulating ice. As they make the turn to join the localizer they got slow and because of the ice their stall speed was increased and that was that.

I'm not sure what the ceiling was that day but by the time I saw them they were in a roll and pitch down roughly 45 degrees from what I could tell. The FDR animation seems to show it was even worse than that. I had always assumed everyone was gone or passed out before impact because of shock but that chilling recording shows otherwise. It was incredibly difficult to get over seeing that but these kinds of experiences are what help us keep a very healthy fear of a job that we can so easily become lazy at.
 
It was incredibly difficult to get over seeing that but these kinds of experiences are what help us keep a very healthy fear of a job that we can so easily become lazy at.

And that's exactly the point of watching these.

I've mentioned this before, but watching animations and CVR's for crashes is a required part of flying in the military. I'm surprised this information isn't shared more in the civilian world. A couple years ago, a commander forced our whole squadron to watch the Elmo C-17 airshow crash- we had the CVR, the FDR, and a high-def video from the tower to go with it. It was brutal- so he made us watch it twice, to emphasize the point that there is no place for that kind of flying in our community. You learn a lot from watching others die.
 
I believe 3272 was a wing stall followed by a tail stall. If you notice when they were about 3,000 feet and the airspeed was back up to 180 knots but the excessive nose down pitch caused a tail stall. They were clean when this happened and the EMB 120 stall speed is 117 knots clean without ice.
 
I believe 3272 was a wing stall followed by a tail stall. If you notice when they were about 3,000 feet and the airspeed was back up to 180 knots but the excessive nose down pitch caused a tail stall. They were clean when this happened and the EMB 120 stall speed is 117 knots clean without ice.
No engineering data is available to determine whether (or not) the EM2 is susceptible to tailplane stalls; the accident report doesn't say word-one about a tailplane stall and the tailplane stall recovery technique is the exact wrong thing to do in the event of a low-airspeed, icing-induced roll upset...which is what happens in transport-category turboprop airplanes without powered flight controls.

(You must push.)

I won't speak to the certification issues, since I'm not quite qualified to talk about them, but I can tell you about roll upsets in the EM2 and similar transport-category turbopropeller airplanes.

Comair 3272 is similar (indeed, very similar) to the Eagle ATR that crashed in Roselawn. Aircraft with non-powered flight controls are susceptible to icing-induced roll upsets if ice accumulates forward of the ailerons, causing the airflow to separate from them. This problem happens at high angles of attack (for reasons that should be obvious). Both the Eagle ATR and Comair 3272 were operating in non-trivial amounts of ice at low airspeeds; both aircraft lost roll control, and it was, as one might say, "off to the races."

The accident airplane here decelerated through 150 KIAS, flaps up, and roll control of the aircraft was lost during a left bank due to asymmetrical ice accumulation forward of the ailerons.

The NTSB found:
Had the pilots of Comair flight 3272 been aware of the specific airspeed, configuration, and icing circumstances of the six previous EMB-120 icing- related events and of the information contained in operational bulletin 120- 002/96 and revision 43 to the EMB-120 airplane flight manual, it is possible that they would have operated the airplane more conservatively with regard to airspeed and flap configuration or activated the deicing boots when they knew they were in icing conditions.
Findings, page 177.

The EMB-120 actually has a long history of various handling problems going slow in the ice; Comair had a few of these incidents (accidents, really, as in one case severe damage was done to the horizontal tail during the recovery from a high speed dive following a roll upset). ALPA's submission to the NTSB on this accident:
Beginning in 1989, the documented history of EMB-120 ice induced roll upsets began with an event in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Over the next six years, the aircraft experienced five additional ice induced roll upsets. A majority of the events appear to have occurred at approximately 150 to 160 knots with high roll angle excursions and significant drag increases being experienced.

Incidentally, after all of this, it happened to Comair again—this time, they lived to tell the tale, but severe damage was done to the tail after the crew recovered from the roll upset and during the recovery of the ensuing dive. (Their EADIs tipped over and tumbled, too. Not bueno)

The net result of all of this was that a bunch of changes were made to the Brasilia, including an admonition to activate wing and tail de-icing boots at the first sign of ice accumulation, the importance of doing at least 170 knots, flaps up, in icing conditions, and the installation of a low-speed icing condition warning alarm (colloquially, the Comair box). The SWS was also modified to take an icing input and activate the system sooner in icing conditions (the specific details escape my small brain at the moment).

tl;dr: roll upset, must push nose down to get control again.
 
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Comair 5054 (the second Comair Brasilia upset in icing conditions) was nearly permanent:
20010319-0-C-d-1-750.jpg
 
When I hear that I always reply......"I doubt they loved becoming a burning hole in the ground....." And then comes the reply..."I didn't mean that, I meant flying....."

Yup and its the "at least" part that really irks me.
 
On the topic of these videos, I found this one. No matter how many times I watch it...I can't imagine why the PIC would attempt to keep flying instead of just stopping on the remaining runway...




Here's a piece of advice I picked up somewhere, which is illustrated by this video. If you are going to crash, for whatever reason, try to crash with the wings level. Here you saw a great example of a wing hitting hard and pivoting the cockpit into the ground, which made what was a very survivable impact into a (probably) fatal one. Obviously he may well have been stalled, which is a whole other issue, but if you are simply flying a glider to the ground, avoid those low level bank angles.
 
Here's a piece of advice I picked up somewhere, which is illustrated by this video. If you are going to crash, for whatever reason, try to crash with the wings level. Here you saw a great example of a wing hitting hard and pivoting the cockpit into the ground, which made what was a very survivable impact into a (probably) fatal one. Obviously he may well have been stalled, which is a whole other issue, but if you are simply flying a glider to the ground, avoid those low level bank angles.
Wings level, under control (well...reasonably...), tail low, and as straight as you can manage it, if you can manage it, is what I've been told.
 
Can't you stop without them? It seems they realized they didn't have them and attempted to go around.
Yes, but your roll out will be greatly increased. They thought they deployed the lift dump, realized they didn't, deployed it, then attempted to go around.
 
The runway was also wet and they also had a tailwind on landing. NTSB had stated that if they had just tried to stop the plane they probably would have overrun the end of the runway by a couple hundred feet, but most likely everyone would have survived.
They would have over run because they didn't deploy the lift dump for 7 seconds after thinking they did. Had they deployed it on touchdown, it would have been a non event. Had they just continued after realizing they didn't deploy it for 7 seconds after thinking they did, it would have overrun by a mere couple hundred feet.
 
One's forced to wonder a bit about how they could be confused. The handle for the lift dump is about the size of a Volkswagen. I mean, I can picture @DPApilot being confused because he always is, but those guys were both out of diapers, IMS.
 
160 flaps zero and either leading edge boots on or ICE CONDITION light on. Close enough.

That's right. I remember carrying a ton of ice into ACV one night. It did well (as usual), but we were glad to be on the ground. This was after going missed once, on our way in from CEC. ACV was supposed to be VFR! Man was that a weird airport that would screw you in a second.
 
I'm curious if anybody actually thought it would be better to crash land while turning versus wings level before that advice was given out. It's also better to land right side up unless you're Denzel just incase nobody knew.
 
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