Comair 5191/Eyewitness Animations

USMCmech said:
The cockpit view was very informative. Seeing the taxiway that they were supposed to take to runway 22, and hearing the controller communicating with an Eagleflight in the background gives a more complete picture of what happened.
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Yeah, it sounds like ATC was doing TRACON and Clearance/Ground/Tower.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Yeah, it sounds like ATC was doing TRACON and Clearance/Ground/Tower.
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We have pretty serious procedures about making sure you're in the right place (it was a good idea to begin with, independent of people dying to prove it).

He who rusheth me during the lining-up part shall suffer me going even slower, for I take seriously "Runway (__) confirmed" and "Runway heading checks"—"Checks"...the condition levers part will bloody well wait.

Shucks. I do this in my GA airplane now too. It's a mistake that needn't ever be repeated. "WARNING - Utilize all available resources, including airport signage..."
 
GypsyPilot said:
Wow. The last time I heard actual CVRs was on the old Air Disasters site from a long ass time ago... Like close to 15 years ago. I fly the CRJ (200 and 700), and I have no idea what that crazy wharbling sound at the end is. Anybody know? Almost sounds like an ELT...

It really is emotional to watch this kind of stuff. I'll admit it, I was once part of a crew (part 91) that took off from the wrong runway, at night, at an unfamiliar airport. The operation had VERY poor CRM (I was definitely considered a right seat gear bitch by that captain), and basically non-existent procedures for capturing a mistake like this. As soon as I realized what we'd done, it scared the crap out of me and I immediately thought of 5191. We were extremely lucky, we got away with our mistake.
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That noise is the stick pusher.
 
hcaeborev said:
That noise is the stick pusher.
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The fact that that airplane is a hot little number on the best day of the year (and no, I don't mean attractive or otherwise creating feelings necessary for the furthering of mankind, I mean "making FDX jumpseaters who are not familiar with the particular eccentricities of the Canuckistani Space Shuttle climb the flight deck bulkhead during approach" sense) didn't help.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Yeah, I also thought after the late 80s/early 90s only transcripts were produced.
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Transcripts are produced, but audio does get leaked at times, unfortunately.

I've heard the CVR for 5191 went on for a few minutes after and you could hear people screaming in the cabin, is that true?
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Has actually happened in a number of accidents; the CVR doesn't just instantly cut out, however in the transcript, it will often say "end of recording" when there's no longer any data specifically pertinent to the investigation report.

Further, the CAMs have a limited range where they pick up voices, so oftentimes you'll only hear what's in the cockpit or maybe if there's a CAM-3, whats in the immediate forward part of the cabin just behind the cockpit door, if it's open or ajar.
 
From the same production company.



Anybody know where this one was? I'd like to read what the hell these guys were doing from the NTSB.
 
It's always interesting how morbid pilots can be about air disasters. That being said, I can pretty much guarantee that everyone who watched those videos checks their directional gyro or heading indicator next time they line up on a runway. I'm glad that we as a community do not take accidents lightly and are always looking to learn from them, even when the footage is as graphic as these are.
 
Finny said:
It's always interesting how morbid pilots can be about air disasters. That being said, I can pretty much guarantee that everyone who watched those videos checks their directional gyro or heading indicator next time they line up on a runway. I'm glad that we as a community do not take accidents lightly and are always looking to learn from them, even when the footage is as graphic as these are.
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Every. Single. Time. All. Day. Every. Day.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
He was, in violation of a labor agreement and internal policy.
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Hmmm... is this still the case? Within the last few month's I've been cleared to land by approach because it was the same guy. He then gave me my taxi home and about an hour later clearance, taxi, takeoff, vectors and shipped to center.
 
Finny said:
It's always interesting how morbid pilots can be about air disasters. That being said, I can pretty much guarantee that everyone who watched those videos checks their directional gyro or heading indicator next time they line up on a runway. I'm glad that we as a community do not take accidents lightly and are always looking to learn from them, even when the footage is as graphic as these are.
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This is not directed at you, but I'm always a little taken back when people call reviewing accidents morbid. Personally, I likely have a little less of a tolerance for death, suffering, or gore than the average person. However, like many on this forum, I regularly find myself learning from the mistakes of others and trying to put myself in the accident pilots shoes to build an understanding of the accident chain. I don't consider it morbid, I consider it a thirst for information and enhancing my personal safety and the safety of those around me. Even if a good airplane balls up on a VFR day because the pilot was attempting something I'd hope would never cross my mind, there are still lessons to be learned. I agree with you that this stuff can be graphic and it is always hard to watch/listen to, but that is the reality of what we do. The pilots in these videos were people just like us who never imagined they'd die that day. I feel it is very important to be able to look at these things objectively. Though I should be used to it by now, when I bring up accidents now and again to pilots and they dismiss me as morbid and quickly change the topic, I'm always a little stunned.
 
z987k said:
Hmmm... is this still the case? Within the last few month's I've been cleared to land by approach because it was the same guy. He then gave me my taxi home and about an hour later clearance, taxi, takeoff, vectors and shipped to center.
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That happens all the time down in the French Islands. Add a language barrier in there, and you really must know whats going on.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I fly the CRJ (200 and 700), and I have no idea what that crazy wharbling sound at the end is. Anybody know? Almost sounds like an ELT...
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I'll start off by saying that this is in no way a knock against you.

That said, if you fly the actual airplane it is absolutely absurd that you can't recognize the stick pusher/stall horn sound. Part 121 training has been totally remiss in providing actual stall training to pilots. I actually only heard that sound once in a sim session prior to the change of procedure after the Colgan crash, and only because we had some extra time and the instructor said "hey, check this out". Nobody did "full stall" training because the ATP PTS didn't specify it.
 
WhatRJ said:
Can someone explain what happened here? What were they supposed to be dumping?
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The hawker has something called 'Lift Dump' associated with the air brakes. It lands with flaps 45 and when brought to lift dump, the flaps continue to 75 degrees while the airbrakes increase from I believe 59 degrees to 74 on the bottom, and somewhere like 30 to 59 on the top. I'd have to look into the book for the airbrake increase though. All in all, when you use lift dump, it slows the thing down. I fly both the A with and without TRs, and the XP with TRs and I'll tell ya, lift dump really slows you down!
 
BobDDuck said:
I'll start off by saying that this is in no way a knock against you.

That said, if you fly the actual airplane it is absolutely absurd that you can't recognize the stick pusher/stall horn sound. Part 121 training has been totally remiss in providing actual stall training to pilots. I actually only heard that sound once in a sim session prior to the change of procedure after the Colgan crash, and only because we had some extra time and the instructor said "hey, check this out". Nobody did "full stall" training because the ATP PTS didn't specify it.
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Hmm... Well I've certainly been present for a lot of FFOD stick pusher tests and should recognize that sound, but for some reason it sounds different in this recording. Also, I've seen the pusher demo at couple of times, so I'll be quite honest and say I'm not sure why I don't recognize that sound at the end.
 
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