Colgan hearings are complete and utter <..>

[tprops4me]

The only thing that making commuting "illegal" will do is create a rush of fake residencies. People can't be required to live in base, especially with the new-hire pay.

This is true, but what is to stop them from doing away with jump seating, or non-reving. This would make a commute impossible unless you wanted to buy a ticket every time, which is financially impossible for a regional pilot. This would essentially force pilots to live in base, or at least a drivable distance. I fear this is one problem that could evolve from the whole crew rest argument. How many pilots here would give up the job if commuting was not an option?

As for the blame of the accident being placed on crew rest issues, it is too bad there is no way to prove this from a medical exam. That would probably be the only way it would stand up in the investigation. I read the transcripts, and I do not think I remember reading any statement that said that anyone was "exhausted". If I am wrong, please correct me. I know it sounds very morbid, but perhaps if you are tired, you should say so every ten minutes of the flight just in case your tapes ever end up being used for an investigation. Not wishing any harm on anyone, but that might be the only way to say that fatigue was evident in a crash. Otherwise it is just speculation.

 

[surreal1221]

Unions are bad mmm-kay?

 

[kellwolf]

How many pilots here would give up the job if commuting was not an option?

Can't speak for other airlines, but Pinnacle would be in a world of hurt. Most of DTW commutes, and most of those guys have already said they'd rather quit than move. If the pay and work rules were better, maybe some of them would stay. But, with the state of the industry right now, I'd wager most people would walk away, especially at the regional level. I know if I were commuting from Orlando to Memphis (which may be coming up here soon) and they said "Quit or move to Memphis," I'd likely walk away myself.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

. . . perhaps if you are tired, you should say so every ten minutes of the flight just in case your tapes ever end up being used for an investigation. Not wishing any harm on anyone, but that might be the only way to say that fatigue was evident in a crash. Otherwise it is just speculation.

It's funny . . . if I'm tired in the jet and have the hot mic off, I actually turn it on before I yawn. Just to have it there.

 

[E_Dawg]

I only see bad coming from this for regional pilots. Pay will not go up, stop getting your hopes up. Low pay didn't cause the crash. The only reason it's getting press is it's yet another surprising uncovering in the mind of the public.

What I can see are some restrictions on commuting, and some kind of minimum hour requirement for FOs. Both of which will serve to actually increase the financial burden on regional pilots. Finally we will lose even more trust from the public, course they'll still buy tickets but expect to hear even more lame "get enough sleep" type comments as they board the small planes.

 

[tprops4me]

Can't speak for other airlines, but Pinnacle would be in a world of hurt. Most of DTW commutes, and most of those guys have already said they'd rather quit than move. If the pay and work rules were better, maybe some of them would stay. But, with the state of the industry right now, I'd wager most people would walk away, especially at the regional level. I know if I were commuting from Orlando to Memphis (which may be coming up here soon) and they said "Quit or move to Memphis," I'd likely walk away myself.

Yeah. I would imagine they would have a bunch of crew members do just that. As far as being in a world of hurt...I am not sure. I would be willing to bet there is someone living in Memphis that would love to fly a big shiny jet and sleep at home. Not saying I disagree with you. I do agree, but these airlines have a way of surviving everything we all figure would do them in for sure.

 

[tprops4me]

It's funny . . . if I'm tired in the jet and have the hot mic off, I actually turn it on before I yawn. Just to have it there.

If you are serious, that is awesome. The latest scientific studies show that a yawn is only a cooling mechanism for the brain, so throw in a "I'm freakin tired" with it, so that way it cannot be contributed to you being a hot head.:crazy:

 

[Orange Anchor]

I don't know what the real problem is. What I'm saying is I hope the NTSB takes the time to find out why this happened and ways to prevent another tragedy from happening again.

The problem is the culture and changing that is more difficult than merely writing regs, increasing paperwork, pointing fingers.

As for finding out why this happened, the NTSB will find cause but since all accidents are unique in composition, this accident will probably not occur again.

BUT we will know change is being addressed IF the rest requirements and scheduling requirements are re-written. Pilots who commute are NOT going to like the result, however. And the airlines will require MORE days to complete a line. Since most airlines did away with rigs, more sitting around.

Not likely airlines are going to re-write their 'reliability' requirements so also plan on doing a better job of not getting sick.

 

[flymetomaui]

I'm new to the aviation thing, via studying for a dispatch certificate, and I have been watching the NTSB hearings. It appears to me that the hearing room is full of people trying to cover their rear-ends, and after rears are covered they will make some policies that apply to everything unbroken and the real issue is swept under the rug. Is this because I am new? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Orange Anchor]

There is no real problem other than you don't yank the stick back to keep from stalling.

So you think the scheduling regs, rest regs, lack of definition of fatigue, training, training syllabus are all fine? The old axiom of 'train like you fly and fly like you train' doesn't work if your training program is lacking.

Someone had to sign this crew off as proficient and competent. They didn't just walk out to the airplane.

(and no, pay is not an issue, IMHO. Paying more is not going to change the dream (or virus) of those who want to fly)

 

[surreal1221]

Someone had to sign this crew off as proficient and competent. They didn't just walk out to the airplane.

Ding Dong.

So where are their heads? Oh right, they won't be touched. The same people will - I'd imagine - continue to sign off people for meeting standards, yet - they do not.

No, they'll just burn the crew. Makes it easier to get more sub-contract, lowest bidder feed.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I'm new to the aviation thing, via studying for a dispatch certificate, and I have been watching the NTSB hearings. It appears to me that the hearing room is full of people trying to cover their rear-ends, and after rears are covered they will make some policies that apply to everything unbroken and the real issue is swept under the rug. Is this because I am new? Am I reading this correctly?

Yes, and yes.

 

[big_news_1]

Theres no option to 'exclude regional airlines' on expedia.

Actually, if you buy tickets through www.kayak.com there are options for "Aircraft Type" during your fare search. You can select "No Turboprops" or "No Turboprops or Regional Jets".

I imagine with the press exposure of these hearings those options might become a little more popular.

 

[tprops4me]

Ding Dong.

So where are their heads? Oh right, they won't be touched. The same people will - I'd imagine - continue to sign off people for meeting standards, yet - they do not.

No, they'll just burn the crew. Makes it easier to get more sub-contract, lowest bidder feed.

The problem is that the regs say that the PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight. Until it reads that the PIC and the person that gave them their license/sign off are responsible, the blame will always go to the pilot.
Even Scott Crossfield screwed up and flew into a thunder storm. No one person is immune to an accident. 500 hour people to 10,000 hour people. They have all made smoking holes in the ground. To go after the people that certified them would go nowhere. The only way to show that someone was incompetent at sign off time would be a recording of the event. A video or data file that would be placed in your permanent record. I can't imagine that many would want a mistake they made in a sim session following them around for the rest of their career.

 

[flymetomaui]

I feel better then???!!

 

[ppragman]

So you think the scheduling regs, rest regs, lack of definition of fatigue, training, training syllabus are all fine? The old axiom of 'train like you fly and fly like you train' doesn't work if your training program is lacking.

Someone had to sign this crew off as proficient and competent. They didn't just walk out to the airplane.

(and no, pay is not an issue, IMHO. Paying more is not going to change the dream (or virus) of those who want to fly)

That's up to the professional crew to say they are fatigued, and unable to take a flight.

As for the training, that is something we can regulate.

 

[BajtheJino]

That's up to the professional crew to say they are fatigued, and unable to take a flight.

Thats exactly right. At the same time guys will talk about how they can't, they'll be harrased or lose trips or some other excuse. If this be the case where is the union in all this? If this has been a problem since for such a long, long time why has this never been a major issue to be tackled?

 

[surreal1221]

Thats exactly right. At the same time guys will talk about how they can't, they'll be harrased or lose trips or some other excuse. If this be the case where is the union in all this? If this has been a problem since for such a long, long time why has this never been a major issue to be tackled?

Pilot pushing is an issue unions are addressing on a daily basis through scheduling committee chairmen/women, contract agreement, and scheduling management.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Thats exactly right. At the same time guys will talk about how they can't, they'll be harrased or lose trips or some other excuse. If this be the case where is the union in all this? If this has been a problem since for such a long, long time why has this never been a major issue to be tackled?

Well, when I worked there it was a lot of fear put into us early that we'd just be fired. I can remember senior guys laughing at new captains saying "Yeah tell them you are fatigued, watch what they do to you."

Some of it was hazing, I'm sure, some of it was genuine warning. Our company culture was simply that Colgan owned you. They tell you where and when to go and stop. It took a strong captain to stand up to them, we had them, but it was far and few between.

Now I only stuck around for a year and was so concerned/angry with the company that I left. So I'm biased obviously. I just couldn't accept that sort of culture, and I was intolerant toward management and their little dance of "well this is just how we do it, and you'd better stay in line, but we aren't breaking any rules".

 

[Orange Anchor]

So where are their heads? Oh right, they won't be touched. The same people will - I'd imagine - continue to sign off people for meeting standards, yet - they do not.
.

it is not a matter of 'their heads' but the FAA grants the authority to the check airmen and the senior. I would be very surprised if any retain their check authority or their CFI IF they had one.