Colgan Flight 3407 Continued.

[LatitudeDancer]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

IMHO, there's no such thing as "experienced enough". Nobody ie experienced "enough" at everything, so there's always room for improvement. Like they say, even the highest time ATP is still a "student pilot".

I've got a friend that's a Captain at Southwest, he was telling me in Chicago last year while it was pouring down snow he had an ex-astronaut as an FO who was outside in the snow pre-flighting while he was sitting tight sipping his coffee. Kind of a funny paradox.

I've also seen a newly retired 747 Captain flair his new 172 60' above the threshold and collapse the gear. Sometimes it's just time I guess.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

ASA didn't teach or train tailplane stalls either. I had never even heard about it until the speculation started about this tragedy. Although it looks like a tailplane stall in this accident is highly unlikely.

Also, I did a couple addons at ATP and instructed there. The "teach only the checkride" rumor is a myth. Couldn't be further from the truth. I taught a lot of my students using the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook. I cannot find any info about tailstalls in there. Most GA aircraft aren't even certified for icing conditions, making tailstall education unnecessary.

Having flown the ATR, I would like to have been aware of it. Guess its so rare that training departments don't worry about it.

I believe it is in the PHAK, but only 1 paragraph if I remember correctly. Even though the Seminole is T-tailed, I have never heard of a tail stall in that aircraft. I don't really think it should be part of the standard curriculum at ATP. When you fly piston airplanes, you teach piston airplanes.

Edit:

http://www.americanflyers.net/aviationlibrary/pilots_handbook/chapter_4.htm

 

[LatitudeDancer]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

I've felt the elevator buffet pretty good once while practicing slow flight in a DA42 TwinStar (a T-tail) at 10,000' (trying to escape thermals). Had the stick all the way aft maintaining altitude at MCA. Probalby won't do that again. (Wasn't my ideal either, my instructor was a little more on the adventurous side that I.)

Note: I tried discussing this with said instructor before, during, and after the flight and sited the PHAK. Said it only pertained to jets; wasn't interested.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

I've felt the elevator buffet pretty good once while practicing slow flight in a DA42 TwinStar (a T-tail) at 10,000' (trying to escape thermals). Had the stick all the way aft maintaining altitude at MCA. Probalby won't do that again. (Wasn't my ideal either, my instructor was a little more on the adventurous side that I.)

Note: I tried discussing this with said instructor before, during, and after the flight and sited the PHAK. Said it only pertained to jets; wasn't interested.

Remember - Flight Instructors don't know everything.

If you feel uncomfortable with a situation that your instructor is putting you in - address it and if it doesn't stop - change instructors.

Learning how to fly isn't worth your life for the "adventures" of someone else.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

You have no idea how many stories I have heard of CFIs doing obsurd things in training aircraft. Just because they have a professional position does not mean they are a professional.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

I was just talking to a friend of mine who works for Colgan, flying Q400's. The day before he flew that exact tail number... He obviously knew everyone on that airplane. This is a small industry, real people died who left behind real families and friends. The last thing these people need are discussions on this forum about their experience levels and arm chair speculations.
When my friend died back in December, his family was reading this forum every day, and you can be positive that family and friends are reading this thread right now. We are all in this industry together. Even as a flight instructor, this hits home with me what happened. Had I not turned down the Colgan interview last June, I could of been on that airplane or certainly would of known the people on board personally.

You hit the nail on the head there Bill. Start another thread if you wanna talk about regional experience levels.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

You hit the nail on the head there Bill. Start another thread if you wanna talk about regional experience levels.

Again, emotions aside, this is a discussion about not only this accident, but preventative measures for any accident of this type. And that's pretty broad. Mild speculation and discussion therein about various topics is normal and healthy....as mentioned before, if you censor or don't discuss, you don't learn; related or not to this particular accident.

Unless specifically noted as such, I don't take any of the posts here to be a direct reflection of the crew involved, it's simply discussion. I only ask that people do not speculate to the point that they're drawing conclusions about anything when we don't know. Professional, respectful discussion regards this accident or similar topics amongst aircrew members is not out of order. Again, this is an aviation discussion board, and as such, we need to put aside emotions to some degree and be able to learn from this accident, whatever the causal factors may eventually be. To do any less, would be a disservice to the final sacrifice this crew made, and to an extent the pax and the person on the ground.

I know. I've been in this position many times before. Stick to the above, and we can balance having a worthwhile thread discussion with the respect the crew deserves.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

What is a typical profile and speed for and ILS in the Q? Why not throw some facts out there so we can stop speculating? I haven't seen any legit evidence on what their actual speed was so who cares about the 134 number.

Since you are asking about pilot technique I will tell you what I normally fly for a profile.

Standard vectors to an ILS approach I will be 200 knots or near it prior to getting my 30 degree intercept. I will be between 180 and 200 once given the intercept with LOC armed with flaps being set to 5 at 200 knots. I start slowing to 180 to be at around 180 at the marker. Once at the marker at glide intercept I drop the gear and set the power I want and let the airspeed bleed to 172 then I will call for flaps 15 on speed. I end up configured and on speed per the company SOPs.

 

[Kristie]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

should any of this conversation be moved out of this thread and into a new thread since this thread is now 25 pages long and nobody is going to read that many pages??

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Since you are asking about pilot technique I will tell you what I normally fly for a profile.

Standard vectors to an ILS approach I will be 200 knots or near it prior to getting my 30 degree intercept. I will be between 180 and 200 once given the intercept with LOC armed with flaps being set to 5 at 200 knots. I start slowing to 180 to be at around 180 at the marker. Once at the marker at glide intercept I drop the gear and set the power I want and let the airspeed bleed to 172 then I will call for flaps 15 on speed. I end up configured and on speed per the company SOPs.

Can you guys do 250 to the marker in that thing? I remember when it first came online the Newark tower controllers seemed to hate you guys because you were flying approaches so slowly. Now given, on an average day we'd be given 180 to the marker, but every once in a while the tower would have us speed in. It was pretty easy to hit the marker at 250 in an XR and be fully configured and stabilized by 1,000' (the you have a higher flaps 45 speed in the XR as opposed to the rest of the -145's), even though we didn't seem to do it too often.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

should any of this conversation be moved out of this thread and into a new thread since this thread is now 25 pages long and nobody is going to read that many pages??

All parsed down by our effective JC staff!

 

[Bumblebee]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Also, I did a couple addons at ATP and instructed there. The "teach only the checkride" rumor is a myth. Couldn't be further from the truth.

I guess it depends where you went, but in my experience (and I did the full program PP to MEII) it is exactly the truth . . . but we digress.

 

[Malko]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

All parsed down by our effective JC staff!

Ditto what MD said. The first umpteen pages are still here but have been closed. If you need to quote something from there feel free to reference that post, but we trimmed it down.

 

[HeyEng]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

I've got a friend that's a Captain at Southwest, he was telling me in Chicago last year while it was pouring down snow he had an ex-astronaut as an FO who was outside in the snow pre-flighting while he was sitting tight sipping his coffee. Kind of a funny paradox.

I've also seen a newly retired 747 Captain flair his new 172 60' above the threshold and collapse the gear. Sometimes it's just time I guess.

I could see how that would happen. After 10+ years of flying on the C-5, and then going to fly a Cessna, the sight picture scared the hell out of me. It took quite a few times to stop flairing 50' high!!!

 

[seagull]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

I could see how that would happen. After 10+ years of flying on the C-5, and then going to fly a Cessna, the sight picture scared the hell out of me. It took quite a few times to stop flairing 50' high!!!

You definitely flare high, but THAT high? I know that I have sat on the runway for a few minutes looking at the sight picture before takeoff, and still ended up flaring at about 10 feet, but 60 feet seems a bit much. What's weird is that I find the eye height of my airplane at touchdown of around 35' looking normal now and it doesn't feel high up at all, so there is definitely an adjustment, but the speeds are a lot different as well, so that becomes part of the sight picture as well.

 

[Nick]

I guess it depends where you went, but in my experience (and I did the full program PP to MEII) it is exactly the truth . . . but we digress.

Not to deviate from the thread too much again but since this was in thread then it isn't really deviating. I also had the same experience from my two CFI ratings I did at ATP as Bumblebee. Not one bit of extra stuff was built into the program and I was even expected to log .3 towards the rating that was obtained by taxiing to the runup area and realizing that the tachometer needles were malfunctioning. There was intent to fly until that moment, and ATP counted it as flight time towards the rating. Totally legal, and totally lame.

Sorry for the thread thread hijack.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Can you guys do 250 to the marker in that thing? I remember when it first came online the Newark tower controllers seemed to hate you guys because you were flying approaches so slowly. Now given, on an average day we'd be given 180 to the marker, but every once in a while the tower would have us speed in. It was pretty easy to hit the marker at 250 in an XR and be fully configured and stabilized by 1,000' (the you have a higher flaps 45 speed in the XR as opposed to the rest of the -145's), even though we didn't seem to do it too often.

The Q can only do 245 below 10,000, so no. But it can do 245 to the marker. When heavy it's a bit harder to slow it up for profile. Above 235 it really doesn't want to slow and descend.

 

[TurdBird]

I know I am very late to all of this but I just wanted to pay my respects to all of those who lost friends and family in this accident.

I was out of town and could not get any real information regarding the accident. I finally touched base with Qgar and she informed me that everyone from here was accounted for. Talk about a relief. I am sorry for all the friends and family that were lost though.

 

[dakovich]

only training I had on Tailplane stalls was that same NASA video when I went for King Air initial training. "here kid, sit down and watch this video".

honestly I think we watched the same video at CMR, but I can't be certain.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

:yeahthat:

Can you guys do 250 to the marker in that thing? I remember when it first came online the Newark tower controllers seemed to hate you guys because you were flying approaches so slowly. Now given, on an average day we'd be given 180 to the marker, but every once in a while the tower would have us speed in. It was pretty easy to hit the marker at 250 in an XR and be fully configured and stabilized by 1,000' (the you have a higher flaps 45 speed in the XR as opposed to the rest of the -145's), even though we didn't seem to do it too often.

As Tuck said, no problem...for 245 or VMO. I say 180 because it seems to be the norm at EWR lately. The plane depending on the pilot is capable of a pretty wide range of say ~125-245 at the marker depending on what the tower is asking for. Unless you are downhill though I do not like to be 125 configured because you carry a boat load of power to to do it although sometimes you are asked to give them that on 11 for spacing.