Colgan Flight 3407 Continued.

Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

chris said:
Forgot to mention, but apparently the FDR shows they were at 134 CAS when the flaps were extended. I dont fly the Q, so I cant really comment on whether or not this is slow or not for Colgan SOPs.
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In the 200 that's not slow, I don't know about the Q400. 200 speeds for flaps are <148 for up to 15' and <130 for 35.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

JEP said:
I understand the theory behind the stick shaker/pusher but if the WSJ article is correct and the pilot pulled hard enough to break the stick pusher that would seem to require a huge tug.

Now is there any other light/indications when the 'pusher' is activated?
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In the Saab you have the Shaker/Clacker(noise associated) and you get the Push 1/Push 2 light/s. I would assume its fairly similar in terms of having a push light, aural warning, and the shaker.

Pusher is about 80 lbs(if I remember right) of force in the Saab just as a point of reference.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

mrambo said:
I'm watching NBC Nightly News and they are going pretty hard at the fact that these pilots didn't have many flying hours and that Scully had about 20,000 when he landed that US Air flight last month. Sucks all the way around.
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Granted, Sully got the airplane down in one piece, but they were REALLY lucky no one died in that river considering the temperature of the water and OAT.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

mrambo said:
I'm watching NBC Nightly News and they are going pretty hard at the fact that these pilots didn't have many flying hours and that Scully had about 20,000 when he landed that US Air flight last month. Sucks all the way around.
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Apples and oranges. Should we really expect a different opinion from both the media or general public. For example the wife last night told me about a girl in one of her classes who brought up this incident. The girl in her class says.
"I used to be an FA for Continental. Im not too sure why they are using those old turbo props again, those things crashed all the time"
That is just one example of the average person out there. Not to mention her credibility on whether or not she was an FA for Continental.
Ive come to terms with the fact that if I choose to watch the news I need to understand that there is a 95% chance they will either get an aviation related item wrong or speculate prematurely on something they know nothing about.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Matt777 said:
The first time I watched this video I was amazed that I had never been taught about tailplane stall and how to respond to it in FAA books or at ATP... like how tailplane stall is indicated by buffet in the yoke (instead of in the airframe like a wing stall)... and whatever you just did, undo it- basically, retract the flaps you just extended is what NASA says.
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ATP teaches you exactly what you need to pass the checkride, nothing more. No surprise that they didn't tell you anything about tailplane stalls.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

SeanD said:
Ive come to terms with the fact that if I choose to watch the news I need to understand that there is a 95% chance they will either get an aviation related item wrong or speculate prematurely on something they know nothing about.
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What you miss is that same fact applies to ALL the stories they do on EVERY subject. I know this for a fact. You can be fairly sure they got the story as wrong as an aviation accident, whether they're talking politics, crime, etc.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/19/nyregion/19crash.html?hp

"Crash Inquiry Sees Signs of Crew Error "

Published: February 18, 2009

A re-creation of the last moments of the plane that crashed in Buffalo Thursday night, based on data from the “black boxes,” shows that the crew may have overreacted to an automatic system that was trying to protect the aircraft from flying too slowly and crashing from an aerodynamic stall......
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Velocipede said:
Granted, Sully got the airplane down in one piece, but they were REALLY lucky no one died in that river considering the temperature of the water and OAT.
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I am more inclined to say that he is lucky no one died when the plane should have broken apart after hitting the water. That is one fortunate set of circumstances. After that I would say then the water temp and OAT were the next bullets to dodge.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

AMH said:
There is a function on the Q, which the crew had turned on, that factors +20 to the Vref speed. Someone who is familiar with the aircraft can probably elaborate more about it.

Does it work in all configurations?
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This is not true, although it is called an "increase ref speeds" switch it does not actually do anything to your ref speeds. It raises the speed threshold for stick shaker activation. It says "increase ref speeds" on your ED telling you to increase your ref speeds so that you are not too close to the threshold.

I wont comment on whether or not their speed of 134 knots was appropriate for the airplane and configuration as that is for the investigators to do.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

aloft said:
I've noticed this trend of late with the Wall Street Journal in particular. They should stick to financial reporting.

This one seems to have its facts mostly straight, once you get past the stuff about the victims' relatives' visit to the crash site:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/nyregion/17crash.html?fta=y
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Actually that's a quite accurate article, considering the typical news story of today.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Ralgha said:
ATP teaches you exactly what you need to pass the checkride, nothing more. No surprise that they didn't tell you anything about tailplane stalls.
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ASA didn't teach or train tailplane stalls either. I had never even heard about it until the speculation started about this tragedy. Although it looks like a tailplane stall in this accident is highly unlikely.

Also, I did a couple addons at ATP and instructed there. The "teach only the checkride" rumor is a myth. Couldn't be further from the truth. I taught a lot of my students using the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook. I cannot find any info about tailstalls in there. Most GA aircraft aren't even certified for icing conditions, making tailstall education unnecessary.

Having flown the ATR, I would like to have been aware of it. Guess its so rare that training departments don't worry about it.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Just want to say I will miss Rebecca. I always enjoyed talking to her. I can't believe how hard these days have been.

wishing you strong tailwinds Rebecca...
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

USMC-SSGT said:
This is not true, although it is called an "increase ref speeds" switch it does not actually do anything to your ref speeds. It raises the speed threshold for stick shaker activation. It says "increase ref speeds" on your ED telling you to increase your ref speeds so that you are not too close to the threshold.

I wont comment on whether or not their speed of 134 knots was appropriate for the airplane and configuration as that is for the investigators to do.
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Well you don't have to, the NTSB spokesman in his press briefing on Monday stated that the Vref was 119, with the increased ref speed for ice, it was 139, their speed at the time of flap extension was 134. But, given that 119 was normal Vref, which provides a 30% buffer for stall speed, the ref of 139 should have given them around 50 knots of buffer. It seems unlikely to me that ice would add 45 knots to their stall speed. I'm not saying its impossible, just seems unlikely that being 5 knots slow would cause you to get a shaker?
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

USMC-SSGT said:
I wont comment on whether or not their speed of 134 knots was appropriate for the airplane and configuration as that is for the investigators to do.
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What is a typical profile and speed for and ILS in the Q? Why not throw some facts out there so we can stop speculating? I haven't seen any legit evidence on what their actual speed was so who cares about the 134 number.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Ralgha said:
ATP teaches you exactly what you need to pass the checkride, nothing more. No surprise that they didn't tell you anything about tailplane stalls.
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Well I knew that already!
You should do a search for my posts in the ATP forum over the last 4 years... I really rip 'em a new one because I was not happy with my $44,000 experience!

Ground? What's that? Only in CFI school.

You wouldn't believe the fine line I had to talk to get my current job about how bad I (genuinely) thought ATP was- being a train you for the checkride outfit- and then the cheif pilot asked me " How is it you got good training there then"? I thought " Well I'm not getting this job- looks like I'm gonna have to go to ATP".. but I talked my way out of it by speaking my mind about how I learned the core of my knowledge and safety practices and decision making during my self-study getting my private at an FBO, and then studied the books hard to build on that foundation! I didn't have to go to ATP! Yay! :)

Sorry if I dissapointed you by not being defensive about ATP! :)
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Trip7 said:
ASA didn't teach or train tailplane stalls either. I had never even heard about it until the speculation started about this tragedy. Although it looks like a tailplane stall in this accident is highly unlikely.

Also, I did a couple addons at ATP and instructed there. The "teach only the checkride" rumor is a myth. Couldn't be further from the truth. I taught a lot of my students using the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook. I cannot find any info about tailstalls in there. Most GA aircraft aren't even certified for icing conditions, making tailstall education unnecessary.

Having flown the ATR, I would like to have been aware of it. Guess its so rare that training departments don't worry about it.
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The thing about ATP is that your quality of instruction varies greatly from one instructor to another! I'm glad to see that you were one of the good ones!
I got a really good one for my commercial multi in TIW, and for my commercial single in VGT, but the other ones were basically burned out.
 
Re: Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

Heath said:
Well you don't have to, the NTSB spokesman in his press briefing on Monday stated that the Vref was 119, with the increased ref speed for ice, it was 139, their speed at the time of flap extension was 134. But, given that 119 was normal Vref, which provides a 30% buffer for stall speed, the ref of 139 should have given them around 50 knots of buffer. It seems unlikely to me that ice would add 45 knots to their stall speed. I'm not saying its impossible, just seems unlikely that being 5 knots slow would cause you to get a shaker?
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The vmo for each are
5- 200kts
15- 172
35- 158

Most don't use 10 as a setting unless it's a tight fast approach.

The Q uses a computer to determine stall speeds, so there isn't a Vs speed per say. The bottom snake will flex up and down as conditions change. Nose down at red speed will give you a fair amount of room. If the deck angle is 8-10 degrees it would be tight. What this means is there is no set speed at which the shaker or pusher activates, so saying that 134 is too slow would be speculation because we don't know where the stall cue was at the time.
 
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