CNN Video: Safety Rule Could Create Pilot Shortage

ATN_Pilot said:
Your situation is exceedingly unlikely to actually occur.
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I didn't stipulate everything you did. I just said (or meant to say) that it's a bad day and the deice is (for whatever reason) MEL'd, and there's unforecast icing at your destination (this has happened to me numerous times...pretty sure it's not unrealistic) and you're shooting this NDB that you say you don't really have to worry about because there aren't any RAIM warnings and the Magenta Magic does all the work for you, etc. But then for whatever reason that poops the bed, too (overvoltage popped the C/B, Sunspots, whatever...again, I can personally attest to the fact that these things ACTUALLY happen, like in the real world. The most likely cause would be that the F/O in question hit the wrong buttons, but I digress).

So now you're worrying about whether the airplane will keep flying, you're suddenly on green needles (or so we called it in the Beatchjet FMS...not sure what the right terminology is in your ride, but regardless, you're flying a raw data approach). And the guy sitting next to you not only hasn't ever done an NDB to minimums on raw data, but hasn't even DONE an NDB at all, ever, and is probably trying to get the Magneta Line Of Grace back like his life depended on it (because of course in his mind it does). So now it's just you, looking at some inconveniently placed backup HSI and trying to remember which line is the bearing pointer and exactly how it was you even flew an inbound course from an ADF anyway all those years ago and hell how much ice can this thing take anyway I don't even know and crap how do you even find the FAF on this thing oh crap I have to tune a crossing radial, etc etc etc.

And I'm sure you'd carry it off. You wouldn't have gotten this far if you were a bad pilot, I suspect. But do you really think that's an acceptable level of Safety? Remember, we're talking about just two relatively common systems failures, one of which could even have happened and been legal before you took off. The whole point of having two pilots is to have two PILOTS.
 
Boris, in all honesty, I don't really know any captains who would go ahead and do an NDB approach under those circumstances. I would insist on a precision approach, and if the destination airport didn't have one, I would divert to an airport that did. I would do that whether I was flying with a brand new 200 hour wonder, or a 5,000 hour veteran copilot. Shooting a raw data NDB approach in icing conditions with deferred anti-ice equipment? Not a chance in hell am I doing that with paying passengers on board. I seriously doubt that you'd find many captains who would.
 
Well of course no one would choose to be in that position. I just don't think it's as totally impossible as you seem to.

Regardless, why does the type certificate require two pilots if one of them is really just an apprentice?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
He isn't just an apprentice. He is fully qualified to fly the airplane.
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Heh. I'm reminded of the exchange in the Right Stuff.

Press Guy: Are you saying for this "space race" you don't want our best pilots?
Government Lacky: No, no, I'm not saying that. We want the best pilots that...we can get.

Anyway, I'm sure we both understand one another at this point.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Its funny how you make less to fly a Beech 1900 or a Metro at night down in the WX with all kinds of terrain and reduced performance than to fly a shiny jet at 350 in Day VFR on autopilot...
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If you genuinely think that's what regional jet drivers do, you clearly don't fly a regional jet ;)


Sent from Seat 3D
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well of course no one would choose to be in that position. I just don't think it's as totally impossible as you seem to.

Regardless, why does the type certificate require two pilots if one of them is really just an apprentice?
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I and my coworkers are considered apprentice members by ALPA, but that's a years of service thing.

Hell I've taught captains fresh off the Canadair or weedwhacker a few things about the jungle jet. A good pilot never stops learning or improving, there's **always** more to learn and master about your trade.


Sent from Seat 3D
 
Not exactly on topic, but the TKS system is very effective (some argue more effective than boots), if it is used properly.

It is an ANTI-ICE system, not a DE-ICE system, and as long as you keep that in mind, you're good. You also need to make sure the system is primed properly before you get into ice. Once on, it literally coats the whole airplane with runback from the LE and slingoff from the propeller. Nothing sticks to anything. It comes in two flavors, FIKI and non-FIKI (just like booted airplanes), the principal difference being an extra pump. Unlike boots, it is relatively easy to retrofit.

The downside is the fluid, which can be up to 60 pounds, and the mess it makes on the hangar floor. The fluid can be spendy and hard to find on the road. You do have a limited supply of the fluid on board, but if your goal is ice evasion, you shouldn't get close to exhausting the fluid.

If I had my choice of a Baron with traditional FIKI, or one with TKS FIKI, I'd take the TKS bird (or even a non-FIKI TKS).

Richman
 
Boris Badenov said:
Heh. When was the last time you did a raw data NDB approach (is there another kind) in icing? You wouldn't call that "under pressure"?
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Quebec City only has an NDB approach for us, seems every time I go up there it's icing...but let's be honest we turn the heat on and load it into the FMS. Only thing we can't do is VNAV so you do have to set MDA in and calculate the VDP and such. But really not a big deal.
 
Richman said:
Not exactly on topic, but the TKS system is very effective (some argue more effective than boots), if it is used properly.

It is an ANTI-ICE system, not a DE-ICE system, and as long as you keep that in mind, you're good. You also need to make sure the system is primed properly before you get into ice. Once on, it literally coats the whole airplane with runback from the LE and slingoff from the propeller. Nothing sticks to anything. It comes in two flavors, FIKI and non-FIKI (just like booted airplanes), the principal difference being an extra pump. Unlike boots, it is relatively easy to retrofit.

The downside is the fluid, which can be up to 60 pounds, and the mess it makes on the hangar floor. The fluid can be spendy and hard to find on the road. You do have a limited supply of the fluid on board, but if your goal is ice evasion, you shouldn't get close to exhausting the fluid.

If I had my choice of a Baron with traditional FIKI, or one with TKS FIKI, I'd take the TKS bird (or even a non-FIKI TKS).

Richman
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I've actually found it to work just as well when used as a de-ice system. Wait for it to build up about 3/4 of an inch, flip it on max, and two minutes later the wings and prop are clear. Rinse and repeat about 15-20 minutes later. Uses about a 1/3 less fluid than just running it on normal flow the entire time. When you turn it off, there's enough on there to keep things clear for a few minutes before it starts building again. On normal flow in heavy icing, it builds up to about 1/2 to 3/4 before falling off anyways, at least on the 210. That all being said, I prefer to just have it on normal flow as designed and keep a good bit of run off caked on the bottom for when it's time to do an approach. Most of the vetrens at FLX run it as I described above as de-ice.

What I always hate is precautionarily turning it on on take off only to find nothing but snow. What would normally bounce off is now sticking to the TKS fluid, not hazardous by any means, just an annoying waste of fluid.

You forgot the BIG downside. Refilling the system and getting slimy hands and a nice crispy wool coat at the end of winter time! :D
 
I had an opposite experience re: using it as de-ice. It would work, eventually, but IMHO used judiciously as anti-ice, you waste less fluid. YMMV. As to it being approved procedure, I don't remember it being prohibited anywhere. It was suggested that you use it as anti-ice, but there's no stricture I'm aware of that says you can't try to use it as deice.

The getting a TKS bath sure sounds familiar, though. I remember going through two cans of the stuff on the ramp at SGF one winter. It was maybe 25G40, and I think I got about 1/8th of the fluid I poured in the resevoir. When I got back in had to sit on my hands for a couple of minutes because I couldn't feel them to start the airplane. Don't miss THAT part, anyway.
 
SteveC said:
Is that de-ice use of TKS an approved procedure?
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Nope! :D Well, lets just say it's use wasn't taught to be used that way.

My first hand experience of using it as de-ice comes from flying with the system off through glaciated clouds with that became, uh, un-glaciated. Usually took about 2-3 minutes to clear.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I had an opposite experience re: using it as de-ice. It would work, eventually, but IMHO used judiciously as anti-ice, you waste less fluid. YMMV. As to it being approved procedure, I don't remember it being prohibited anywhere. It was suggested that you use it as anti-ice, but there's no stricture I'm aware of that says you can't try to use it as deice.

The getting a TKS bath sure sounds familiar, though. I remember going through two cans of the stuff on the ramp at SGF one winter. It was maybe 25G40, and I think I got about 1/8th of the fluid I poured in the resevoir. When I got back in had to sit on my hands for a couple of minutes because I couldn't feel them to start the airplane. Don't miss THAT part, anyway.
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Was it an outside receptacle? Ours are on the inside of the plane(in the tail of the 210, nose of the baron). Pouring it into the funnel usually gave you a decent splash of the stuff all over your hands. It has a cleaning solution in it apparently and does exfoliate your hands wonderfully! I have girly man hands now. Er, yeah... o_O

The stuff is like diesel though, sticks to everything! At least it doesn't stink like diesel! Had to get my wool coat dry-cleaned twice to get it out though. Usually had the privilege of filling it up in the hangar, but I did have to stop in Fort Dodge one night to fill it back up. Same deal, cold as hell, windy, snowing, not fun!
 
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