CNN Interview with Concorde FE

Pilot Fighter said:
Stripe questions:

FE’s wore two stripes. There were some carriers where they wore three stripes if they also were current FO’s.

Do any foreign carriers still have two stripe FO’s? Years ago, a few carriers had two-stripe FO’s and three-stripe Chief FO’s.

I’ve stopped paying attention.
Does anybody wear a single stripe these days?

I remember some pilot trainees wore a single stripe during training. Maybe that disappeared with dress uniforms for trainees.

I remember some ME carriers where the purser was male and he wore a single stripe.

Didn’t American flight attendants have one stripe for awhile? Maybe they still do.
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I have seen two stripe FOs in Europe I think. In Asia two stripes is generally a Second officer. So they only sit in the right seat in cruise.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Growing up on Whidbey, I saw the last Reserve P-2’s show up occasionally. They looked horrible but I thought they were cool.

Side note, the retirement of the P-2, C-131, C-1, and S-2 resulted in the collapse of many Navy flying clubs. No more gas to steal.
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That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before (the flying clubs part). What a bummer. I know we had a T-34 up here at some point in the past, as did many other bases I've been stationed at.

So on the old ass P-2's, one of the old man's stories was ferrying a bird back to NUW in the late 70's as he was nearing retirement. I think he may have been the XO or CO at that point. Anyway, they RON at Ellsworth, and the next day, they go to leave. Generator fails at low speed on the first attempt and they abort. Mech goes and tries to fix it back on the transient line. They make attempt #2 and same thing happens. Taxi back and that big spotlight bulb thingie on the wing just disintegrates all over the ramp. Anyway, fixes are made, and attempt #3 happens. On that one, the generator fails catastrophically and the engine catches fire and they abort again. Tower (or maybe more likely ground) tells my dad that the base CO is waiting for him in his office. Dad shows up, gets ripped into for flying this old ass bird that is broken, my dad promises they will never return, and they get on their way successfully a few days later. I think they were a little long in the tooth by then. He did get a few hundred hours in the P-3A when they arrived with the reserves, in his last year.
 
In many European airlines you start as a 2 stripe FO. They get their 3rd stripe when they become "senior FOs" usually after either a total time requirement or a company longevity requirement. I haven't been plugged into European aviation for a while so I don't remember if you come in with significant hours (as opposed to 250hr cadets) if you can go directly to 3 stripes
 
///AMG said:
Still have em on the military side, though I think the ranks are significantly dwindling. EP-3E, and maybe a few Herks are still around that use them? I assume you or @Wardogg can speak to that intelligently
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I’m out of the loop. I retired in 2014 and the last of the legacy Herks were gone a year or so after I left. The new Js struggled with the new crew concept of the “Crewmaster” position. Which was a combo of FE/FM/LM. So last I heard they were bringing the FE back. There was just too much missing knowledge. I’m pretty sure the Navy still has legacy Herks and I have friends working for Force in Pax River that are flying legacies.
 
On the civilian side, there was a big brew-ha about FEs and right from the beginning. Airlines didn’t want them and neither did Douglas because they gave them a competitive advantage over their primary rival, which at the time wasn’t Boeing, but Lockheed.

It a pattern that seems destined to repeat itself through eternity, there were some bad accidents, and with some pushing from ALPA, the government required FEs on piston aircraft over a certain weight, and eventually all turbine powered equipment. AMR was rip • pissed over this, and they never forgave ALPA, which caused problems later on.

How this new rule was implemented was highly variable, because, surprise surprise, the training wasn’t that well defined. Some airlines used pilots, some used mechanics, Eventually this would lead to labor problems because on those lines that used PFEs, they formed their own union (FEIA).

The “crew compliment” issue was one of those big labor deals in the 60s, and led to some strange issues, like requiring a 4 man crew on a 737.

It took a lot of effort to hit the reset button, and by the 70s, almost all major airlines used pilots as FEs, with some PFEs grandfathered in. Smaller outfits and cargo operators continued to use PFEs. AAs split with ALPA in the 60’s was caused primarily by the crew complement issue.
 
The whole flight engineer vs ALPA vs FEIA is really bonkers looking back at it. I know guys hired in the 60s to be pilot qualified flight engineers who sat on the jumpseat of the 707 next to the actual engineer, the joke being that they were haircut checkers for the pilots. They were used until the FEIA engineers could get their ratings and then work up the ladder as pilots but retaining their seniority. So the haircut checker went from that to DC-9 captain in two years(DC-9-10s were under 80,000lbs so no engineer required) only to be later displaced back to the right seat or the panel when the old engineer worked back up to their seniority.

Here is another useless footnote to the engineer story, when SWA started up they contracted with UAL for 737 training. So you had an operator that was using two pilot flight crews being trained by another that required three for the same airplane.
 
FlyingAccountant said:
What was the last jet that SJ flew that required an FE? The L1011?

Didn't the early 737s have an FE too?
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Yep! Several airlines required them when the airplane first came out.

I know, for sure, Western, United and Wien required engineers on the 737. In fact, Wien pilots went on strike over it in 1977 when Wien tried to remove the engineer.
Skåning said:
You’re thinking of the early 767s at Ansett.

I know, I know #nerd


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There was no separate panel for the engineer on the 737. He/she sat in the jumpseat.
 
///AMG said:
That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about before (the flying clubs part). What a bummer. I know we had a T-34 up here at some point in the past, as did many other bases I've been stationed at.
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At one time, the Whidbey flying club had two T-34’s. In addition to free gas, they also benefitted from mx assistance and parts. When the Navy updated to the turboprop C model, they had an extensive parts inventory for the old engines.
 
Wardogg said:
I’m pretty sure the Navy still has legacy Herks and I have friends working for Force in Pax River that are flying legacies.
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Oh yeah, forgot about them, 100%. We are even standing up a C-130J FRS within the Reserves in the next year or so, as they begin taking deliveries. It's pretty high priority given the logistical gaps we theoretically have in the pacific, assuming USAF MAC assets are either saturated or don't have airfields to fly from.
 
All second officers at southernjets had three stripes. But there was no star above the wings.
 
How did FE positions work in terms of seniority for certificated pilots? I know there were professional FEs that didn't know how to fly, but if you had all your tickets and were hired into an airline like SJ or any other major, were you relegated to the FE seat until you attained enough seniority to bid the right seat or could you skip that entirely?
 
FlyingAccountant said:
How did FE positions work in terms of seniority for certificated pilots? I know there were professional FEs that didn't know how to fly, but if you had all your tickets and were hired into an airline like SJ or any other major, were you relegated to the FE seat until you attained enough seniority to bid the right seat or could you skip that entirely?
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SouthernJets didn’t actually hire PFE’s but they came over from the Pan Am acquisition and were in a restricted category alongside the retired seniority list pilots that came back as FE’s after age 60. They had seniority for benefits, and bidding but there wasn’t any crossover. I know some of the pilots were able to build flight time and become pilots, but for the most part most were older, senior and didn’t have much interest in making the jump.

When I was on OE as a 727FE, my trainer was a PFE and one of the coolest, most patient guys I knew. He was a pilot but was happy doing what he was doing with little interest in being an FO or the time building it would require.
 
The guy who was sort of the "on-wing" for my sim partner and I, when we were knocking out our ATP practical, was a retired UAL CA. He said he spent 10 years flying the desk in the 727. I feel like by that point, I'd almost not be a pilot anymore. That must have been pretty crappy.
 
///AMG said:
The guy who was sort of the "on-wing" for my sim partner and I, when we were knocking out our ATP practical, was a retired UAL CA. He said he spent 10 years flying the desk in the 727. I feel like by that point, I'd almost not be a pilot anymore. That must have been pretty crappy.
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I wonder what the salary scale looked like for FEs vs FO and Capt.....
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Stripe questions:

FE’s wore two stripes. There were some carriers where they wore three stripes if they also were current FO’s.

Do any foreign carriers still have two stripe FO’s? Years ago, a few carriers had two-stripe FO’s and three-stripe Chief FO’s.

I’ve stopped paying attention.
Does anybody wear a single stripe these days?

I remember some pilot trainees wore a single stripe during training. Maybe that disappeared with dress uniforms for trainees.

I remember some ME carriers where the purser was male and he wore a single stripe.

Didn’t American flight attendants have one stripe for awhile? Maybe they still do.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure united has FAs I confuse for FEs with their two stripes
 
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