Cmr 5191

Soul Brotha'

Soul Brotha'

Off to go do Black guy stuff
AP) - A Comair pilot instructor said the pilots of Flight 5191 would have failed a flight test for violating rules the day the flight crashed, killing 49 people, according to court documents.

Comair Capt. Thomas Scharold testified in a deposition that the pilots violated briefing, taxi and "sterile cockpit" rules, which say pilots must maintain a distraction-free cockpit. Scharold is a line check pilot, a veteran pilot who trains other pilots.

Scharold said if he had been instructing Flight 5191's pilots - Jeff Clay and first officer James Polehinke, the sole survivor - he would not have let them take off. The pilots steered the plane onto an unlit runway too short for a commercial jet to take off in the pre-dawn hours of Aug. 27.

All Comair pilots are required to receive training from line check pilots each year and must pass flight tests, a Comair spokeswoman said.

Scharold is one of three Comair instructors whose depositions are excerpted in a court brief filed Tuesday by the airport in response to allegations made by Comair. The airline has noted that published airport diagrams that were in use the morning of the crash had mislabeled a taxiway.

Comair, based near Cincinnati in Erlanger, Ky., has filed a third-party claim against Blue Grass Airport in a lawsuit filed by relatives of one crash victim.
Dozens of other lawsuits against Comair have been filed by crash victims in state and federal courts.

Airport attorney Tom Halbleib said the instructors' testimony was consistent with evidence released by the National Transportation Safety Board showing that the pilots violated company and Federal Aviation Administration rules by talking about their families, work and other subjects while preparing for takeoff.

Comair spokeswoman Kate Marx said the deposition excerpts don't tell the whole story. "The depositions of the (instructors) were extensive, and their individual comments should not be taken out of context," she said, declining further comment.

Polehinke's lawyer also declined comment.
The NTSB is scheduled to meet next week in Washington, D.C., to issue a probable cause of the crash.
 
Well, that's nice. CMR is hanging the pilots out to dry. Admittedly, taking off on an unlit runway might not be such a good idea (although from the way the runways are laid it it is sort of hard to see what it lit and what isn't) but the sterile cockpit thing? That was one of the most professional sounding CVRs I've read a transcript to.
 
Well the Captain is dead and the FO is mamed. Who do you think they would lay the blame to? themselves for not providing correct plates? think again. One more reason that I don't miss Comair.

It doesnt help that the media plays off ignorant americans. All they provide is the "pilots took off the wrong runway" therefore its the pilots fault. 99% of americans will never understand the chain that leads to accidents, and auxillary factors.

Sad but true:(
 
OldTownPilot said:
All they provide is the "pilots took off the wrong runway" therefore its the pilots fault.
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...but, it was the pilots fault. There really wasn't much of a breakdown in a "chain" here, they lined up and blasted off on the wrong one.

How different was the airport diagram? Did it have incorrect runway alignment headings on it? If yes (ie the short runway was labeled as the long one and vice versa) than your post has some merit.

Even before the Comair accident procedure at my company was to state the runway alignment heading and confirm with the DG's prior to advancing the thrust. It's our job as professional pilots to catch this stuff. If it wasn't, we'd just have monkeys up there.
 
Yeah I know most of the blame lies with the pilots. But the jep plate was incorrect and the NOTAMs were also incorrect. I cant remember who on here said it, but one of 'us' said in hindsight it was an accident waiting to happen since the construction.

My comment also had to deal with the mentality of "blame the dead guy" in accidents, and the media dumbing down EVERYTHING.

As Ethan said, that was one of the most professional CVR recordings that I've read of accident transcripts.

I'd like to see an ALPA reps comment to the recording to counter the check/ 'management' pilot comments.

And Marx the spokesperson has no freaking clue.
 
I'll go with the pilots took off on the wrong runway. I'm all for that, and I agree with it. The "sterile cockpit" thing, though, not so much. In fact, in a lot of the transcript, those conversations are going on AT THE GATE. Kinda hard for a JSer to introduce himself during taxi.....
 
I still hope that FAA Procedures can still be addressed to staff more than one controller in the tower during non-peak hours. The FAA's assertion that the local controller's back turned to 5191 while doing paperwork is in accordance with set policies and procedures is pretty scary. We should never shortchange ATC staffing levels to save money.
 
I was always taught as a student, to check the DG for proper heading after aligning on the runway for a few reasons. I have yet to fly with a Captain that verbally confirms the heading alignment prior to takeoff. Its something I do, and generally state as we are taxiing onto the runway merely out of habit because thats how I was taught. During training, this was never practiced either.

Something so simple can prevent accidents. Yeah, the pilots made a mistake that they couldn't back out of. But its a mistake anyone can make and we all know it. Just need to try harder and be more vigilant.
 
i know this might sound bad, but pilots are still human beings. we all make mistakes. this is a mistake that took 49 lives but still it is a mistake. we should learn from it and move on. you cannot blame one person for the terrible accident but just see the situation and learn from it. my heart goes out to all the the families that lost members that tragic morning.
 
ljg said:
I still hope that FAA Procedures can still be addressed to staff more than one controller in the tower during non-peak hours. The FAA's assertion that the local controller's back turned to 5191 while doing paperwork is in accordance with set policies and procedures is pretty scary. We should never shortchange ATC staffing levels to save money.
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Haven't seen anything lately. I flew into several airports last week with one guy doing ground/tower/clearance. Kinda hard to get your landing clearance when guys looking to taxi and pick up IFR clearances keep stepping on you. We were about 400 ft AGL and prepping for a go around before tower finally said 'cleared to land."
 
OldTownPilot said:
...themselves for not providing correct plates?
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Um, just as a for your information - airport diagrams do not get changed because a runway is under construction. . .that's what NOTAMs are for. Which, are up to the pilot(s) / operator(s) to get and read, and follow.

It is far too costly to NACO to reprint airport diagrams everytime a taxiway is under construction.
 
surreal1221 said:
Um, just as a for your information - airport diagrams do not get changed because a runway is under construction. . .that's what NOTAMs are for. Which, are up to the pilot(s) / operator(s) to get and read, and follow.

It is far too costly to NACO to reprint airport diagrams everytime a taxiway is under construction.
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Well, that's good to know. Now, I can go and take out all those stupid yellow Jepp airport diagrams for places under construction!:p
 
Pretty sure we didn't have yellow pages for the construction in LEX. RSW, yes. LEX, nope. We don't have them for DTW either while the runway is under construction. Like was mentioned, that's what NOTAMs are for and why you're REQUIRED to check them.
 
It's horrible the accident happened. It's a mistake that was made, but it could of been prevented. Unfortunately, the pilots are still to blame. I know as aviation geeks and pilots we seem to be defensive on the pilot side since, hell we're pilots, but also just as a person we expect only THE BEST from the folks up front. We expect that at least training will knock out any deficiencies as pilots and train them so accidents like this dont happen.

However, we live and learn. Nothing more, just dont make the same mistake next time.
 
Stone Cold said:
Well, that's good to know. Now, I can go and take out all those stupid yellow Jepp airport diagrams for places under construction!:p
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Jepp doesn't issue those yellow construction diagrams for every airport that's under construction. There's probably some "time of construction" requirement before they issue it.

In the end, the crash was the pilot's fault. Yes, there were external contributing factors, but in the end, the pilots screwed up.
 
Surreal,

I am Charter. I'm pretty sure we have the same stuff the 121 guys do, but we have all airports in the US, Latin America, and Canada in our Jepps (kept in the airplane). I don't know what the criteria is for the "yellow page" to get added, but there are quite a few in my Jepps. As mentioned above, not all airports under construction get yellow pages, and, as also mentioned, CHECK NOTAMS. My point was there are some charts that do have construction noted on them.
 
Stone Cold said:
Surreal,

I am Charter. I'm pretty sure we have the same stuff the 121 guys do, but we have all airports in the US, Latin America, and Canada in our Jepps (kept in the airplane). I don't know what the criteria is for the "yellow page" to get added, but there are quite a few in my Jepps. As mentioned above, not all airports under construction get yellow pages, and, as also mentioned, CHECK NOTAMS. My point was there are some charts that do have construction noted on them.
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I have flown 121 and currently fly fractional, I'm pretty sure you don't have the same stuff the 121 guys do! You more than likely are currently utilizing Jepp's Q-service, am I correct? The 121 operators have Jeppesen publish company specific pages for them that nobody else receives except that operator. These guys are more than likely referring to those pages and you won't find them in any Q-service.
 
Company pages are blue and 10-7, the yellow ones are normally 10-8s. I don't know where they come from, I just see them in my in box and put them in my binders.
 
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