"Cloud surfing" And IFR Airwork

[DiveAndDrive]

Hello all. I'm a newly minted IFR pilot (3/21/16!!). I have two questions for controllers.

1. If I want to do a local flight in actual conditions to get some "cloud surfing" time in (skimming in and out of the tops of a scattered or broken layer), but without a destination in mind, what would be the best way to do this? File the IFR flight plan to my departure airport and ask for a block of airspace? I guess the other way would be file a destination and then request a cruise clearance, but I think this second method could be confusing.

2. If I want to do a local IFR flight to get some actual IMC and do approaches/holding, what would be the best way to do that? My instructor and I have departed VFR before and called approach airborne for a pop up local IFR clearance. How would one file a flight plan like that and go about getting the clearance on the ground? Just like any other IFR flight?

 

[z987k]

File abc-abc via some fix in the direction you want to go. Put the block request in the remarks and ask the controller for it as well.

 

[NovemberEcho]

You can also try asking for VFR on top. Basically you're VFR below the clouds, ask for a VFR on top, and the controller gives you an IFR climb through the clouds to a higher altitude that is (hopefully) VFR.

For just doing local IFR stuff, you can do as you have done and get a local clearance in the air, or you can file a round robin flight plane. APT-FIX(the one you want to hold at)-APT. You can put in remarks you're looking for practice work or tell the tower/controller. Workload permitting I'm sure they'd be happy to work with you.

 

[z987k]

You can also try asking for VFR on top. Basically you're VFR below the clouds, ask for a VFR on top, and the controller gives you an IFR climb through the clouds to a higher altitude that is (hopefully) VFR.

For just doing local IFR stuff, you can do as you have done and get a local clearance in the air, or you can file a round robin flight plane. APT-FIX(the one you want to hold at)-APT. You can put in remarks you're looking for practice work or tell the tower/controller. Workload permitting I'm sure they'd be happy to work with you.

He has to maintain vfr with an on top clearance. Dipping your wheels into the clouds is not vfr.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Well yeah it wouldn't do much for the cloud surfing aspect, but it'll give him a chance to fly through the clouds if he couldn't file an IFR plan at the needed altitude to do so

 

[adk]

Do you have a GPS? I always liked to file a radial/DME and then request a 10 mile radius, 2000 foot tall block of airspace ... I.E. request VOR/320/25, 10NM radius block 5000-7000. If you're not in a busy area you should get it.

With no GPS, you can request a quadrant, such as 360-090 radial, 10-20 DME, block 5000-7000.

For local IFR, I always just filed a radial DME that was the direction I wanted my initial turn to be.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Another option is to get a block altitude if available

 

[gotWXdagain]

Another option is to get a block altitude if available

Works for vertical but doesn't let you play around the clouds. still can only go in one direction

 

[ASpilot2be]

Works for vertical but doesn't let you play around the clouds. still can only go in one direction

Right. But it let's you pick an altitude for cloud surfing.

 

[FM_Weasel]

File to the area you want and ask for a block of airspace to maneuver. Review quadrant clearances and block altitude assignments, as they pertain to the type of flying you're looking to do.

Of course, these requests are granted on a workload permitting basis and probably won't be allowed in busier airspace.

I don't think VFR On Top is an appropriate way to achieve any of this. Many pilots and indeed many controllers don't fully understand VFR On Top procedures. I've very rarely seen one executed properly and with the intended result.

 

[fholbert]

File to the area you want and ask for a block of airspace to maneuver. Review quadrant clearances and block altitude assignments, as they pertain to the type of flying you're looking to do.

+1

Look at your charts (just dated myself) and find a area that's clear of feeder traffic, holding patterns and final approach courses. File for that area. I'd file Round Robin, then when you're on frequency simply make your request.

Definition of Round Robin: A flight traveling A - B - A. The origin and final destination are the same station.

I don't think VFR On Top is an appropriate way to achieve any of this. Many pilots and indeed many controllers don't fully understand VFR On Top procedures. I've very rarely seen one executed properly and with the intended result.

+1

VFR on top, VFR over the top. It's just backwards. In SoCal this time of the year we file to on top most mornings, the marine layer rolls in off the Pacific Ocean. Typically 800' and 10 miles, tops 4000'. I never file, I simply call the Clearance Delivery desk at SoCal Approach.

I'd like a VFR on Top clearance, I'll cancel when on top. Anything else creates confusion.

When I worked at KFAT we'd be IFR for weeks at a time in the winter. At 2000' above the surface it was clear and 50 miles. We'd issue more than 150 VFR on top clearances a day. So many Clearance Delivery had a rubber stamp for the flight strips.

 

[Stinger]

I'd like a VFR on Top clearance, I'll cancel when on top. Anything else creates confusion.

When I worked at KFAT we'd be IFR for weeks at a time in the winter. At 2000' above the surface it was clear and 50 miles. We'd issue more than 150 VFR on top clearances a day. So many Clearance Delivery had a rubber stamp for the flight strips.

That's not a VFR-on-top request. What you're talking about is picking up IFR, departing, then cancelling IFR and going own-nav when you're above the clouds.
But maybe the person working clearance at SoCal does it the On-Top way anyway. When you ask for one, does the clearance include "climb to and report reaching VFR-on-top, if not on top by 3,000, maintain 3,000 and advise." ?

 

[T/O w/FSII]

That's not a VFR-on-top request. What you're talking about is picking up IFR, departing, then cancelling IFR and going own-nav when you're above the clouds.
But maybe the person working clearance at SoCal does it the On-Top way anyway. When you ask for one, does the clearance include "climb to and report reaching VFR-on-top, if not on top by 3,000, maintain 3,000 and advise." ?

Not exactly, when I call LGB clearance here in socal when the marine layer is here I simply ask l them for a VFR on top. Its a climb, turn, and intercept a radial to a local fix clearance. Once on top socal asks wtf am I planning on doing now, and I cancel as soon as I can.

 

[fholbert]

That's not a VFR-on-top request. What you're talking about is picking up IFR, departing, then cancelling IFR and going own-nav when you're above the clouds.
But maybe the person working clearance at SoCal does it the On-Top way anyway. When you ask for one, does the clearance include "climb to and report reaching VFR-on-top, if not on top by 3,000, maintain 3,000 and advise." ?

I know. That's what I was saying.

 

[FM_Weasel]

Wouldn't bother me at all if VFR On Top went away, since everyone just uses it like the above examples anyway.