Clarifying Question: Minimum Hours???

[mrambo]

If the majority of pilots (not just on this board but nationwide) feel as though that the current hiring TT mins are too low and that folks need more experience, then why doesn't ALPA or someone lobby the FAA to raise the bar for COMM or ATP certs? Or maybe create a new one because maybe flying a crop duster you'll be good at 265hrs but for a Regional (ATP1) you'll need 1,500 and a major you might need 3,500TT (for the ATP2). I think this would nip things in the bud, no?

I think the reason why regionals have lowered their TT mins so low is because it's perfectly LEGAL. Is it SAFE? I don't know because I'm not a Regional CA or FO.

I wonder how many hours TT a surgeon needs before he/she is released on the general public, unsupervised, cutting people open?

MR

 

[MusketeerMan]

Well, there's one reason why that won't happen...if they were to raise the # of hours and make it a regulation, there simply would not be pilots to fly airplanes and the industry would go into a tailspin!

My brother is a doctor and after medical school he could pretty much do what all doctors do..surgeons don't need hours...they go through 4 years of med. school, and then 3 years of "supervised" residency.

 

[casey]

Or maybe create a new one because maybe flying a crop duster you'll be good at 265hrs but for a Regional (ATP1) you'll need 1,500 and a major you might need 3,500TT (for the ATP2). I think this would nip things in the bud, no?

MR

that really wouldnt change anything except increase time for regional FO's a little bit. Regardless of the TT they come in with they need a minimum of 1500 to upgrade and unless upgrades are running around a year they'll have more than the mins when their turn comes. Then they sit in the left seat a minimum of 1000 hrs before a major will look at them.

consider a 500 hr guy coming in, 2 year upgrade @ 800 hrs/year. upgrades with 2100 hrs, sits 1000 as PIC so he has 3100 hrs and now he can start applying to majors. Probably wont be competitive though.

As for safety i think the NTSB records speaks for themselves. TT gives you more experience but i dont think has as big an impact on being 'safe'. Safety is more an aspect of your personality and attention to detail imho.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Hey, how many hours do military guys need to fly nukes?

Flame away




*On a side note, I sat at a bar in Charleston, WV the other day with a trainee navy fighter pilot. He had started flying the Navy's light jet trainer - had less time than I do.

All I got to say as I sit here at my boring desk job is @#$% you high school guidance counselor!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Hey, how many hours do military guys need to fly nukes?

Flame away




*On a side note, I sat at a bar in Charleston, WV the other day with a trainee navy fighter pilot. He had started flying the Navy's light jet trainer - had less time than I do.

All I got to say as I sit here at my boring desk job is @#$% you high school guidance counselor!

Its a good point. The reason I think the military and some foreign airlines are able to do this successfully is because they screen their applicants. I'm currently an instructor for one of the companies who does the initial flight screening for those with pilot slots from the Naval Academy. First off you have to get pretty good grades in order to get a pilot slot. Second is that the screening program is pretty challenging. We need to get them to solo by 13.5 hours and have them done their solo x/c by 25 hours. All while following everything else in the Jepp private pilot sylabus. So its not like we just meet the bare minimums for the solo and solo x/c.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Its a good point. The reason I think the military and some foreign airlines are able to do this successfully is because they screen their applicants. I'm currently an instructor for one of the companies who does the initial flight screening for those with pilot slots from the Naval Academy. First off you have to get pretty good grades in order to get a pilot slot. Second is that the screening program is pretty challenging. We need to get them to solo by 13.5 hours and have them done their solo x/c by 25 hours. All while following everything else in the Jepp private pilot sylabus. So its not like we just meet the bare minimums for the solo and solo x/c.

Oh I'm sure you're right - I have full faith in most military pilots (c'mon Marines - stop destroying F-18's!)

 

[aloft]

Regionals use mins to adjust the size of their applicant pool. If you take that ability away from them, they'd have to do something else--like, oh, offer better pay--to attract qualified applicants, and that just runs afoul of the airlines' business models which rely on cheap labor to make a profit.

 

[MikeOH58]

There is a large group of people with a hard on for the whole "as soon as the opportunity arrises you get that seniorioty # ASAP! Doesn't matter if YOU are ready...If the airlines have lowered THEIR mininums and you are at or above them, then YOU are ready!...duhhh!"....

Yea first of all you are turds...Secondly, I don't care about your seniorioty #...If a major problem arises, and you can't solve it, was it worth losing your own life, and potentially anywhere from 35-70 people in the back just for a seniority # and a pair of epaulets?

oh yea...Have fun with that additional 40k you have accumulated with interest on your loan mr. big first officer on a jet!

 

[DAnbert]

I think the reason why regionals have lowered their TT mins so low is because it's perfectly LEGAL. Is it SAFE? I don't know because I'm not a Regional CA or FO.

I wonder how many hours TT a surgeon needs before he/she is released on the general public, unsupervised, cutting people open?

MR

Correct me if I am wrong but a FO is not released to be unsupervised right out of the gate. In fact if you really want to put it in perspective, is one life (CFI) worth that much less than 35 (FO)?
In case I am not clear, we are "released" to fly "unsupervised" with a student, at a way lower TT than we are allowed to sit up front of a larger plane with a Captain to guide and teach us.
Maybe we should start complaining about CFI times?

 

[mrambo]

In fact if you really want to put it in perspective, is one life (CFI) worth that much less than 35 (FO)?
...
Maybe we should start complaining about CFI times?

I thought about this as well but decided to work from the top down.

MR.

 

[mrambo]

Yea first of all you are turds...Secondly, I don't care about your seniorioty #...If a major problem arises, and you can't solve it, was it worth losing your own life, and potentially anywhere from 35-70 people in the back just for a seniority # and a pair of epaulets?

I'm not sure what's better:

Guy #1: 0hrs to CFI at JetU, then CFIs up to 1000hrs in a Cessna 150 before getting on at Mesa.

Guy #2: 0hrs to COMM at JetU, then tools around in a PA-28 on weekends until he hits 500hrs then jumps on at Mesa and flys the next 500hrs as FO.

At 1,100hrs can we say who will be the better "pilot" or "aviator"? Who would handle the CRJ better in near mins?

MR.

 

[mrambo]

Why don't they rework the min hours to something like this:

COMM (crop dusters/aerial photog): 300hrs
CFI: 500hrs
Regionals (ATP1): 1,500hrs
Majors (ATP2): 3,000hrs

And if you all are saying that's what the average FO has entering Regionals/Majors have anyways then no one should be complaining.


Right?

MR.

 

[casey]

Why don't they rework the min hours to something like this:

COMM (crop dusters/aerial photog): 300hrs
CFI: 500hrs
Regionals (ATP1): 1,500hrs
Majors (ATP2): 3,000hrs

And if you all are saying that's what the average FO has entering Regionals/Majors have anyways then no one should be complaining.

MR.

no reason for CFI to be so high and a setup like that would require an overhaul in the way aviation insurance is underwritten to make jobs more available to 300hr pilots. Powerline/pipeline patrol, banner tow, traffic watch, most that i've seen want at least 500 hrs.

No reason for 2 ATP's, as i said in my post above by the time you can apply to a major you will have that time anyway, so its not an issue.

What would increasing the min's for regional FO's accomplish? It would tighten the supply more than it already is at the regional level. Are you hypothesizing that it would make regional airline travel safer? Whats the benchmark you are shooting for. What is the fatal accident history of regional airplanes? Should 1500hrs apply to all FO's, just jet FO's, etc?

just trying to figure out your motives.

 

[MFT1Air]

Its a good point. The reason I think the military and some foreign airlines are able to do this successfully is because they screen their applicants. I'm currently an instructor for one of the companies who does the initial flight screening for those with pilot slots from the Naval Academy. First off you have to get pretty good grades in order to get a pilot slot. Second is that the screening program is pretty challenging. We need to get them to solo by 13.5 hours and have them done their solo x/c by 25 hours. All while following everything else in the Jepp private pilot sylabus. So its not like we just meet the bare minimums for the solo and solo x/c.

Interesting. I was out a Freeway Airport in Maryland this past summer hearing the same minimums being addressed. As I understand the solo concerns, what other aspects of the PTS are addressed to ensure a pilot can meet minimums and be considered safe? I mean, I looked at my logbook again. At 13.5 hours, my total landings were 12 with instructor, but I could do or had seen all the PTS maneuvers. Is it a good idea to focus on the hours like that?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Interesting. I was out a Freeway Airport in Maryland this past summer hearing the same minimums being addressed. As I understand the solo concerns, what other aspects of the PTS are addressed to ensure a pilot can meet minimums and be considered safe? I mean, I looked at my logbook again. At 13.5 hours, my total landings were 12 with instructor, but I could do or had seen all the PTS maneuvers. Is it a good idea to focus on the hours like that?

Yeah, the Academy spreads out the students going through the course between a bunch of different airports.

I agree that 13.5 is a challenging goal. It was 15 hours until July when the Navy decided to re-do the whole program. For a while everyone at our school was running around worried that it would become a safety concern, but then we figured it out. It is only a safety concern if we allow it to be.

It is very stressful as a CFI in this program. I want all of my students to pass the course, and I will do everything I possibly can to help them out. One of my biggest fears is that one of my students fails to pass the program due to deficient instruction on my part. But, an even bigger fear of mine is that one of my students goes out and solos before they're ready and hurts or kills themself. So before I fly with any of these students, I make them realize that I WILL NOT solo them unless I'm 100% sure they are ready. It is a difficult decision to make, not letting someone solo and effectively ruining their career, but its certainly better than sending them to their death.

Thus far i've been extremely fortunate to have had a group of very smart and motivated students. I've gotten about 16 people through this program with only one failure. And the day I had to tell him it wasn't gonna work as by far the worst day I've had instructing so far.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I'm not sure what's better:

Guy #1: 0hrs to CFI at JetU, then CFIs up to 1000hrs in a Cessna 150 before getting on at Mesa.

Guy #2: 0hrs to COMM at JetU, then tools around in a PA-28 on weekends until he hits 500hrs then jumps on at Mesa and flys the next 500hrs as FO.

At 1,100hrs can we say who will be the better "pilot" or "aviator"? Who would handle the CRJ better in near mins?

MR.

The guy who CFIs, by far. CFIing isn't about building time, its about learning and becoming a better pilot. All CFIs are not equal though. It depends on what kind of instructing you are doing and in what kind of environment. Regardless, CFIing will teach you tons more than just tooling around on weekends. That's not even up for debate.

 

[mrambo]

no reason for CFI to be so high and a setup like that would require an overhaul in the way aviation insurance is underwritten to make jobs more available to 300hr pilots. Powerline/pipeline patrol, banner tow, traffic watch, most that i've seen want at least 500 hrs.

I don't think the aviation insurance industry should be taken into account for the country's safety. Besides, it will only make the rates be lower because all pilots flying for pay will have more hours under their belts.

No reason for 2 ATP's, as i said in my post above by the time you can apply to a major you will have that time anyway, so its not an issue.

But the case shouldn't be what you will have "anyway" by the time we get there. It should be what the MINIMUM will be. That's part of the "problem" now.

What would increasing the min's for regional FO's accomplish? It would tighten the supply more than it already is at the regional level. Are you hypothesizing that it would make regional airline travel safer? Whats the benchmark you are shooting for. What is the fatal accident history of regional airplanes? Should 1500hrs apply to all FO's, just jet FO's, etc?

just trying to figure out your motives.

Many people on these boards think our skies aren't safe because we have 400hr wonder FO sitting with 4,000hr CA. So, I'm just trying to maybe see if there are ways to actually "DO" something about the low time guys rather than sit around the campfire complaining about it.

And I'm not sure if it will make the skies any safer seeing the airline industry's crash record. I don't fly professionally and am unsure if you can even operate a CRJ with one person. But if you can I think that a 4,000hr CA with a 500hr FO should be sufficient.

But what if the CA has a heart attack and the FO only has 600hr TT?

MR

 

[mhcasey]

500hrs X $75/hr (cheap C172) = $37,500.

You're right...we should require this so that CFI's can be in even more horrific debt than they already are.

By the way, I don't know of too many 250hr crop dusters.

 

[mrambo]

The guy who CFIs, by far. CFIing isn't about building time, its about learning and becoming a better pilot. All CFIs are not equal though. It depends on what kind of instructing you are doing and in what kind of environment. Regardless, CFIing will teach you tons more than just tooling around on weekends. That's not even up for debate.

But CFIing in a Cessna 150 for 500hrs is better than sitting real world in a CRJ for 500hrs?

MR

 

[mrambo]

500hrs X $75/hr (cheap C172) = $37,500.

You're right...we should require this so that CFI's can be in even more horrific debt than they already are.

By the way, I don't know of too many 250hr crop dusters.

Not everyone goes into debt earning their ratings.

And how many crop dusters do you know total?

I doubt many folks knew many 500hr wonders in the regionals 5 years ago either but today they are becoming more abundant and they are well within the legal parameters.

MR