CL65 Type Ratings?

[H46Bubba]

To a pilot, getting your ratings and hours are like reaching a certain age in life(could possibly go hand in hand for some of the younger members). Your solo is like taking your parents car out around the block by yourself while only holding a learners permit. You get your private, now your able to take the family car out on Friday night. Everyone pays their dues, except the PFT'ers. The industry is not as it was 10-15 years ago. It has it's ups and downs. We all want the industry to stabilize after the 9/11 downturn. Pilot's are getting hired with less time and for wages lower than their predescesors. All these low time pilots are not just from the academies, their comming from the FBO's that you all trained at also. The airlines need pilots and subject them to their standards, so they must feel that these pilots are qualified to sit in the right seat. No matter how long you've flying our how many hour have been logged, a pilot is always a student, always learning something newand we also learn from each other. My grandfather has been flying since the 50's and he always learns something new, wheather it's a new procedure or new technology. We are pilots. We have invested time, effort and money to do what we love to do. You start of as an FO for a reason; so as to gain experience and knowledge so that once you move to the captains seat you, you can pass that knowledge on to new FO's. All the while as captain you continue to learn and grow.

 

[DE727UPS]

Very well said, sir.

That being the case. Why does a 700/100 pilot feel the need for a jet type rating? It's really putting the cart before the horse. I think it's a product of today's "big academy" flight school marketing. Some school figured they could make money selling type ratings and next thing you know....it's part of some career track program.

I'm really old and somewhat influnced by the past...that's part of my problem. When I was working my way up they didn't have Level D sims where you couldn't get a type without flying the real thing. You did most of your training is a sim and then "rented" the real thing for the checkride. This made it necessary that you have a pretty good level of experience before you would undertake one of these type rating programs. With the advent of Level D sims, you can do it all without stepping foot in a real plane. I think that leads to it making sense for an academy to offer this kind of training to low time guys. They don't have to prove themselves in the "real thing".

Not that it's any different at the big airlines. I could upgrade to 757/767 Capt without flying the real thing on a checkride. But, I just find it hard to believe that a school that can train a 700/100 guy to pass a jet type is doing it to the same level as major airline training.

 

[H46Bubba]

Thanks for the kind words. I meant all of it. I see where you're coming from though. I can tell you who exactly offers this program. It is the brain child of RAA. It is part of their bridge program with Air Wisconsin and the other partners they have, but it's mainly for Air Wisky. But I think it's a waste of money, that the airline could pick up tab for. Suppossedly if you are hired by Air Whisky that with the type rating you can skip a lot of stuff during new hire training. As to what, SJflyer could better answer that than I. I personnaly know him and he's a really great guy. He didn't get the type rating to be a captain or assume that he could go straight to the left seat. I can't say the same for everyone else that goes throught the program. He just want to prove that even though he has low time, he is competant enough to fly a jet, work in a CRM environment and handle the training.

 

[foztofly]

UPS, I agree with what you are saying about a low-time pilot claiming to be properly trained just because they have a type rating. We see the same thing at the instructor level. Soon as SOME people get their CFI ticket, they think they know everything about flying and teaching. This couldn't be further from the truth. I personally tell my students on day one that as much as I may help them learn, I am learning from them too. Just because I have a white shirt on and they a blue one doesn't mean I am done being a student.

[ QUOTE ]
Very well said, sir.

That being the case. Why does a 700/100 pilot feel the need for a jet type rating? It's really putting the cart before the horse. I think it's a product of today's "big academy" flight school marketing. Some school figured they could make money selling type ratings and next thing you know....it's part of some career track program.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that this is very much a part of the academy's marketing. Personally, I think these flight schools that do offer the type ratings as a PFT type deal (which DCA isn't one) have done so reactively, not proactively. As long as there are airlines out there that will hire these pilots, there are going to continue to be places that offer it. I see that as a problem at the airline level, the customer if you will, and not the schools or provider. Granted, if schools would stop providing it, than airlines would have no choice but to wait until the pilot has "earned" the rating, but in reality it is still a business and money is being made, so it will continue. Even at the 1000 hour mark, I understand that you think pilots are not ready to be flying a jet and to be eligible for FO training. As Bubba stated though, it is not just the academy's sending their instructors to the airlines though. My first instructor I had at a FBO in Jan, 2002 has since been hired by Colgan as a FO and has already upgraded to Capt. As far as training a 700/100 guy to pass a jet type rating vs. what the airline training would provide, I once again would tend to agree with you. I don't think it would be to the same level, but I don't have experience in either (my disclaimer

) route. Makes me think of those business grads trained by Harvard or Kellogg or Wharton... have the schools really provided the training to them that they need to succeed in the well-respected positions they are hired into? Or have the schools just provided a foundation of info and a structure for them to learn how to study for when they do get into the training program at the major corporations? I personally think it is the later of the two and feel that the best training provided is that hands on training. I don't think it is any schools fault though for providing these students, it is the company doing the hiring for taking them.

 

[DE727UPS]

"the academy's marketing"

Just to be clear. I wasn't refering to DCA ref the type rating marketing comment as that isn't something DCA does....I should have been more specific. CH46 just pointed out one school that is doing this and seems to know more about it than I do.

"Even at the 1000 hour mark, I understand that you think pilots are not ready to be flying a jet and to be eligible for FO training"

I hope that's not the impression I'm making...

At the 1000/100 mark, I think a guy has the background to be a useful jet F/O. Not at 300 hours. Not at 500 hours. Also, if a guy wants to buy type specific training in a jet to help him get hired at the regionals...more power to him. I still don't want to fly with an F/O who's knowledge base is less than 1000/100, I don't care if they have a type rating or whatever. If they did have a type rating, it would have been all in a sim with no practicle experience.

Secondly, let's say a guy somehow has 900 total with 400 jet SIC and came from TAB express. I wouldn't want to fly with him, either, cause he bought his job and participated in the lowering of the bar for regional pilots.

DCA guys, before they get "the interview", would have over 1000/100. So I have no problem with DCA's "pipeline" to the regionals.

My complaint is with all the big academies marketing programs that make it look soooo easy to become an airline pilot, if you just do their program. They come up with schemes to make it look like you're a shoe in if you do it their way. When, in reality, what value is a guaranteed interview when guys are getting hired at 1000/100 anyway? At least in today's market.

 

[DE727UPS]

"He didn't get the type rating to be a captain or assume that he could go straight to the left seat"

In my view...that's what a type rating is. At least it used to be. But I'm kinda old school. What ticks me off about this is that a large jet type rating used to be a sacred thing. It blows the mind of most airline pilots that a guy at 700 total could get one....I've been asking around....

"He just want to prove that even though he has low time, he is competant enough to fly a jet, work in a CRM environment and handle the training."

Great. I have no problem with that. Some schools have an RJ bridge program or RJ F/O training. To me, when you extend that into a type rating, you are cheapening what it stands for by creating two classes of "type rating". One class says "I have this piece of paper that says I'm qualified to be a jet PIC, but I'm really not." The other class is "I've proven that I'm qualified and ready to be Capt of the jet...that's why I have this piece of paper".

As far as making it through ground school goes. Any 121 ground school in going to eat you for lunch but a guy with a good aviation background, who works hard, and has a good attitude, will succeed. If you want to pay for RJ F/O training to get hired somewhere or make ground school easier, that's fine. Let's just not call it a type rating....

 

[foztofly]

I didn't think you were referring to DCA in your comments. I did however throw in my post that DCA doesn't do that for those that may be reading these posts and don't know. Like I said, in no way did I take it to mean that you were "accusing" DCA of this. About the 1000 hour mark, I did think that you meant those pilots too, and I stand corrected with your post.

 

[NC_BE300]

[ QUOTE ]

So what you believe is this.
A person should be able to play Major League Baseball without playing in the minors for experience.

So, why has it become acceptable to fly an airliner without regard to the same level of standards?

Commuters have gone from 14 seats to 70 seats. Routes have gone from 50nm to 2000nm. Cockpits have gone from analog to EFIS. Yet, the experience required has gone from 3000tt to 600tt, and the pay still reflects the 50nm days.


[/ QUOTE ]

If a person can meet the STANDARDS, and SUCCEED, why should they be held back? If you can meet standards, you have demonstrated your ability, therefore, you can make it in your current level of experience. You shouldn't be held back.
As far as the hours and technology, look at the fact that alot of airplanes are easier to manage now. We have gone from flying older turboprops with little or no automation/advanced navigation equipment to RJ's that have autopilots, and FMS, along with computers that simplify system management. Technology has made the job easier.

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Technology has made the job easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when the technology tha many are so dependant on, fails? That's where the experience makes it's cash money, not to mention just the regular flying in the system. and all of the variables associated therein.

 

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can meet standards, you have demonstrated your ability,

[/ QUOTE ]
NO....You have demonstrated you can meet the standards (ie....minimum requirements)

[ QUOTE ]
Technology has made the job easier.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, and has caused a decrease in hands on experience/piloting ability.

You have demonstrated precisely why they should be held back. Standards are great. But they are minimum requirements; they do not magically make you an experienced pilot.

Experience is knowing what to do when you get in the plane. Not hoping to learn it along the way.
Experience is what you do when those 5-6 CRTs go dark at FL410...
Experience is doing so many approaches to minimums that 300 and 1/2 makes is a walk in the park...
Experience is knowing which side of the front gives the pax a better ride...
Experience is when the mach trim and primary stab trim fail at FL410 and mach .91...
Experience is what is gained after years in the cockpit.....
Not 2 years of classroom knowledge.

Experience is not turning on the autopilot at 400AGL and reading the paper on the way to CLE.

 

[planediveguy]

Even though it goes against my agenda ( since I am one of those low time guys ) here is a good, no B.S. post!

Experience requires time.

 

[NJA_Capt]

Hey Doug, Wha's up with this?

This post can no longer be edited because the maximum edit time has expired

So much for fixing a typo...

 

[derg]

Software thingy!

 

[NJA_Capt]

So what IS the maximum edit time??

 

[derg]

Lemme check...

 

[derg]

It's a half hour. I can adjust it to whatever. What would a fair edit time be?

 

[DE727UPS]

NJA...why would you want to change any of that post.

You are WAY right on.

"Standards" in training are minimum standards to kick you out the door. Management needs you out the door ASAP. That's the way training works. Now...experience, previous experience, makes up for some of the shortfall in the training enviornment. But when you don't have that background to fill in the blanks, you are shorting the system. A good Capt easily makes up for that and helps you get up to speed. But I don't think it's right to subject a Capt to that. Plus, it can compromise safety.

And I'm not really speaking to DCA here, as their "graduates" have over 1000 total and 800 multi. I think that's an okay background to undergo jet F/O new hire training...though it would be better if that 800 hours was 135 freight multi time flying in the Pacific Northwest. Now that would be some experience.....