CJ2+ Flight Time Logging Question...

I was just informed that I may get PIC rated in the CJ2+ once we get it. That is, if we get it as it's not a done deal yet although the odds are pointing toward us getting the CJ2+. I still prefer the Beechjet XT as it solves my time logging issue, but I am not the boss.

Funny thing is, even if I am type rated in the CJ2+, we'll still fly with two crew. So the end result is the same when it comes to my logbook. I will only log time when sole manipulator of the controls and the time will be logged as PIC. Almost interesting how that works.

I suppose the good part is, if all goes well and the Captain moves onto bigger and better horizons, hopefully I get to step into his shoes and pay this experience forward to my FO. But then this is aviation. I learned to expect nothing and just hope for the best in this industry! Then good things follow...
 
Is this a new plane? If so, it will come with two training slots at FSI for pilots. When you go to training, take the crew training ONLY. This will allow you to log SIC.........
 
Dude....you can log SIC time as long as the PIC gets a 61.58 check at school (shoots an instrument approach with a right seater will check the box). Like others said, don't cheat yourself of flight time, there's no reason to. There are plenty of 91 guys that fly CJs who log time this exact same way. I know several and it hasn't stopped their career in any way.
 
Yes, it is a new plane. So I would get the actual type since the Captain eluded to this as a possibility.

The Captain does have the 61.58 check and the S as well in the Mustang. He'd also get the same Single pilot rating in the CJ2+. I may also get the same, but still will be F.O. Do not think we will do "crew training" only. So having a Captain with the Sinlge pilot type makes my position a lame duck position.

Since the Captain is Single pilot rated and we are Part 91 (even though he is also 61.58), I still read it as I can not log the time unless I am sole manipulator of the controls. Can not log the time since under the regs I am not required since he can fly without me and be legal (and he does 50% of the time as we often have weight issues).

I also understand that when I am at the controls as the sole manipulator, if I have an SIC only type, I can log the time. But the FAA response confuses me. Do I log this time as the sole manipulator of controls as SIC time or PIC time? :confused2:

The interesting thing is from what I am reading on here is that many are logging SIC time in the Mustang and in the CJ2+ as SIC under the 61.58 premises, even with an S rated pilot at the controls. I'm not sure that's right based on what I read in the FAA response. So not sure how they get away with that unless someone has another interpretation from the legal system or FAA they can present. So confusing! :bang:
 
flyTotheSky said:
Dude....you can log SIC time as long as the PIC gets a 61.58 check at school (shoots an instrument approach with a right seater will check the box). Like others said, don't cheat yourself of flight time, there's no reason to. There are plenty of 91 guys that fly CJs who log time this exact same way. I know several and it hasn't stopped their career in any way.
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Might want to read the FAA interp. Not saying people don't do it as I fly with a guy that logs it ALL (just it's not legal).
"Fly what you want, log what you need", right?.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Yes, it is a new plane. So I would get the actual type since the Captain eluded to this as a possibility.

The Captain does have the 61.58 check and the S as well in the Mustang. He'd also get the same Single pilot rating in the CJ2+. I may also get the same, but still will be F.O. Do not think we will do "crew training" only. So having a Captain with the Sinlge pilot type makes my position a lame duck position.

Since the Captain is Single pilot rated and we are Part 91 (even though he is also 61.58), I still read it as I can not log the time unless I am sole manipulator of the controls. Can not log the time since under the regs I am not required since he can fly without me and be legal (and he does 50% of the time as we often have weight issues).

I also understand that when I am at the controls as the sole manipulator, if I have an SIC only type, I can log the time. But the FAA response confuses me. Do I log this time as the sole manipulator of controls as SIC time or PIC time? :confused2:

The interesting thing is from what I am reading on here is that many are logging SIC time in the Mustang and in the CJ2+ as SIC under the 61.58 premises, even with an S rated pilot at the controls. I'm not sure that's right based on what I read, but when it comes to regulations that are confusing normally the general consensus is the right way to go unless there is a court ruling on such. Seems the general consensus here is still fragmented though and the closest thing to a legal ruling is that FAA official response which I put my weight on. Ah, so confusing! :bang:
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When you're on the controls, you log PIC time. If he has a "S" (C510 or C525) and all the equipment required is installed and working, you can't (legally) log the time. It sucks, no doubt.......
 
dustoff17 said:
When you're on the controls, you log PIC time. If he has a "S" (C510 or C525) and all the equipment required is installed and working, you can't (legally) log the time. It sucks, no doubt.......
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Okay. I am in agreement with you on this one, even though I wish it was different. So here is how I understand it and will log it.

Captain has "S" type, so I will not log any time in the aircraft. I will simply keep my "unofficial" logbook going in case anyone asks how much time I have in the aircraft. At least I have it documented, even though it's not in my official logbook.

Here is the last question I have though:
I fly with my "S" typed Captain and I am SIC only rated. I am the sole manipulator of the controls on this leg.
1) Do I log PIC time in my official logbook since I was the sole manipulator of the controls?
2) Do I not log this time even when I am sole manipulator of the controls since the guy next to me is "S" rated?

That's my final question on this debate at this point. How would you log that, or not log that?

Thanks for all the comments so far!
 
TexasFlyer said:
Okay. I am in agreement with you on this one, even though I wish it was different. So here is how I understand it and will log it.

Captain has "S" type, so I will not log any time in the aircraft. I will simply keep my "unofficial" logbook going in case anyone asks how much time I have in the aircraft. At least I have it documented, even though it's not in my official logbook.

Here is the last question I have though:
I fly with my "S" typed Captain and I am SIC only rated. I am the sole manipulator of the controls on this leg.
1) Do I log PIC time in my official logbook since I was the sole manipulator of the controls?
2) Do I not log this time even when I am sole manipulator of the controls since the guy next to me is "S" rated?

That's my final question on this debate at this point. How would you log that, or not log that?

Thanks for all the comments so far!
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Unfortunately, you are not rated in the aircraft for the logging of PIC in your main log.

Insurance has been known to value a side log with time you can't normally log. I would keep track of the "SIC" time and the time you actually are flying in the side log and when insurance comes along for the next jet you can give them the information.
 
TexasFlyer said:
........................................................
Here is the last question I have though:
I fly with my "S" typed Captain and I am SIC only rated. I am the sole manipulator of the controls on this leg.
1) Do I log PIC time in my official logbook since I was the sole manipulator of the controls?
2) Do I not log this time even when I am sole manipulator of the controls since the guy next to me is "S" rated?

That's my final question on this debate at this point. How would you log that, or not log that?

Thanks for all the comments so far!
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Maurus and I might disagree here so let's see where this thread leads us:
According to the FAA, YES, you can log the time in your "real" logbook as PIC when you're the sole manipulator. Think back to when you first started flying; did you log all of your instructed time as 'dual' or as "pic" when you were physically flying the plane or did you put that time in an "unofficial" log book? "Qualified in the plane" is irrelevent when you're sole manipulator.

Your operation and other pilot is your hinderance. The one thing that hurts YOU the most is the other pilot's "S". I hope that he does NOT get it when you go to the CJ2+ (you'll really like this plane, by the way).
Side note:if you were right seat to me and capable, you would fly almost every leg; it's the only way to gain you time and experience for the next rating and it doesn't effect me. This is how I operate with my current SIC when I can.
 
dustoff17 said:
:
According to the FAA, YES, you can log the time in your "real" logbook as PIC when you're the sole manipulator. Think back to when you first started flying; did you log all of your instructed time as 'dual' or as "pic" when you were physically flying the plane or did you put that time in an "unofficial" log book? "Qualified in the plane" is irrelevent when you're sole manipulator
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Hold up just a second. You're saying that you recommend that a non-PIC type rated SIC log PIC time in a jet when he's the sole manipulator. Please tell me I'm reading that wrong.
 
dustoff17 said:
"Qualified in the plane" is irrelevent when you're sole manipulator.
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I think the FAA says otherwise:

61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Hold up just a second. You're saying that you recommend that a non-PIC type rated SIC log PIC time in a jet when he's the sole manipulator. Please tell me I'm reading that wrong.
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You read it correctly, I wrote it incorrectly.....sorry. I meant to clarify the exact thing you mention here. You wrote it correctly.

To the OP: If you hold a SIC type rating as TFaudree has stated, then you can log the time when you are the sole manipulator of the controls. If you do not have a SIC type rating, then we're back to you putting the time in an "unofficial" logbook....sorry.

FAR 61.51, as shown above, it does NOT state that you must be a type-rated PIC or that you must hold a single-pilot type rating. It states "type rated"; a type rated SIC IS just that, type rated. Type rating = "rated" for the purposes of logging flight time under this discussion and the FAR mentioned.

auw2fly said:
I think the FAA says otherwise:

61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
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You're right, I meant to state PIC rather than qualified....sorry
 
I'm even more confused now. You're saying that a pilot that holds a SIC type can log PIC in a turbojet aircraft when acting as sole manipulator?
 
Just do what Maurus suggested. Make a new column (or logbook) and log the time that way, for the experience. In the corporate world, this is 100% loggable time, even if it isn't legal FAA time.
 
Only problem with that second logbook, is that in the corporate world...No one will look at either logbook!
 
Logging PIC time and acting as PIC are two different things, but I guess you'd have to somehow differentiate when logging that time if you were the PIC, or just performing the duties of PIC. Back to the two separate logbooks?

I personally never logged PIC time until I was qualified to act as PIC, which may have cheated me out of some PIC time, but it almost seems more of a hassle than what it's worth, for me anyway.
 
I wouldn't have ever gotten to where I am now had I not logged all of my soul manipulator time in the King Air as a FNG. That being said, logging soul manip in a King Air is much different, then a 525 without a PIC type.
 
dustoff17 said:
True statement!
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I guess it depends on your interpretation of "aircraft rating" as mentioned in 61.51 (e)(1)(iv)(A). Personally, I don't regard an SIC type as an "aircraft rating", seeing as how there are no testing requirements to obtain one, and it was created by the FAA solely for the purpose of satisfying the ICAO requirements for international flying.

I found this in the Federal Register for the Final Rule of Part 61 (linked), dated Aug 21, 2009.

Additionally, the pilot who is performing PIC duties is required to
undergo an approved PIC training program consisting of ground and
flight training on the following areas of operation: pre-flight
preparation, preflight procedures, takeoff and departure phase, in-
flight maneuvers, instrument procedures, landings and approaches to
landings, normal and abnormal procedures, emergency procedures, and
post-flight procedures.
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Regarding the bold; define "approved"? Who approved it? Are we talking Part 142 training?

Since there hasn't been an official interpretation provided by the FAA, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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