CJ2+ Flight Time Logging Question...

I am going to the FSDO Thursday with my logbook to present my FIRC paperwork. I am also presenting my logbook where I logged ground and my 3 take-offs and landings in the Citation as sole manipulator of the controls and single engine maneuvering as acting PIC so I can get my SIC in the CE510. I did log the 0.7 for the flight in my official logbook as dual-given from my Capt (who is not a MEI but he is an ATP and I figure I can log this as such since it is for an SIC rating).

When I am at the FSDO I will ask for clarification on if I can log time when I am the sole manipulator of the controls since I have an SIC type rating when my Captain is both "Single Pilot" and "Crew" rated.

I am pretty sure the answer is I can not log the time as PIC or SIC since the regs fall back to the part where I AM NOT REQUIRED CREW since the Captain is "S" rated. Now if he was "Crew" only rated I bet I could log the dang time. Fingers crossed we both get "S" rated when we take delivery of our CE525.

Also, I hope the corporate Part 91 world and the Part 135 world put value on this situation since we do function as a crew and the time is in a separate logbook to make the FAA happy that I do not have any unloggable time in my official logbook. The bad part is, I am sure the 121 world puts no value in this time.

Either way, I know that I am learning a lot and enjoying my job. I just wish I could fly more since I have not been on a trip since the 17th of last month due to weight issues and seat issues on our little CE510, meaning I got left behind the last few trips. And rumor is I may be left behind on this Friday's trip as well due to weight issues. They really did hire me though based on the owner liking a second pilot on the deck for safety and based on the expectation we are upgrading to a larger aircraft where this will not be an issue in the very near future.

Plus, this career is about more than just logging time. It's about enjoying the journey. It's just nice to be able to officially log the time on this journey!

Thanks everyone for the comments. I will report back on Thursday once I get clarification on how our FSDO interrupts this one on the SIC logging time under an "S" rated Captain flying under Part 91. And why does something tell me if I ask 5 FSDO's I'll get 3 different answers to the question...
 
[quote="auw2fly, post: 1863401, member: 23699]............................
I personally never logged PIC time until I was qualified to act as PIC, which may have cheated me out of some PIC time, but it almost seems more of a hassle than what it's worth, for me anyway.[/quote]

This is EXACTLY the way I log too. I know I've cheated myself out of PIC and SIC time but it makes for a cleaner logbook and all the numbers reconcile.....
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
I guess it depends on your interpretation of "aircraft rating" as mentioned in 61.51 (e)(1)(iv)(A). Personally, I don't regard an SIC type as an "aircraft rating", seeing as how there are no testing requirements to obtain one, and it was created by the FAA solely for the purpose of satisfying the ICAO requirements for international flying...................
Click to expand...

There is a performance standard for SIC though....sort of a test for the "rating".......
 
dustoff17 said:
There is a performance standard for SIC though....sort of a test for the "rating".......
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Since we know all the chief pilots/captains/etc out there signing off boy wonder for the SIC type (so they can fly the boss to Bermuda for the weekend) have done all the training required...

And if I'm not mistaken, it's the ONLY rating in existence that doesn't require someone with examination authority, be it an FAA inspector or DPE, to actually conduct a test before signing the 8710. That speaks volumes.
 
I keep the right seat warm in a CJ1 and even though I might be wrong, I log all that time as SIC. I haven't read the LOI posted earlier yet, but I'm anxious to see what it says.

All of our Commodores have a current 61.58 and we have CVR's as well as SIC types. Wish in one hand and ___ in the other aside, I do the same thing in the CJ1 as I do in the crew-required airplanes. I will say that without being PIC typed even I'd have a hard time logging PIC because I don't think I'd be able to justify it during an interview. That's my metric. If someone wants me to exclude all of my CJ1 time out of my Total, Multi, and SIC column, I'll be more than happy to do it.
 
Got the SIC type today as FSDO.

Here is what the FSDO said:
Simply If the type rated PIC can kick you out of the aircraft and still fly legally, you can not log the time as PIC or SIC. And that is a firm answer.

The interesting part is that I could not get a firm answer on still logging it as Total Time, Multi, and Turbojet if I left the PIC and SIC column blank.
 
If you have to try this hard to justify e flight time, you probably shouldn't be logging it.
 
TexasFlyer said:
The interesting part is that I could not get a firm answer on still logging it as Total Time, Multi, and Turbojet if I left the PIC and SIC column blank.
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I always thought this was a bad idea. Logging time with no SIC or PIC associated with it is just as good as me logging the heavy jet time I have sitting in seat 21A on a 767.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Got the SIC type today as FSDO.

Here is what the FSDO said:
Simply If the type rated PIC can kick you out of the aircraft and still fly legally, you can not log the time as PIC or SIC. And that is a firm answer.

The interesting part is that I could not get a firm answer on still logging it as Total Time, Multi, and Turbojet if I left the PIC and SIC column blank.
Click to expand...

The FAA doesn't have a definition of Total Time, so I wouldn't expect him to be able to answer your question about it.
 
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