CJ2+ Flight Time Logging Question...

TexasFlyer

TexasFlyer

Living the Dream (well at least trying to)
I fly for a Part 91 Flight Department. I'm the FO on a Cessna Mustang, but I can not log the time I fly in my professional logbook even with my SIC in the Mustang due to it being single-pilot certified. Here is my question:

We are upgrading to a new CJ2+ from the sound of it. I'll get my SIC in this plane and the Captain of course will get his type. The CJ2+ is still certified to be a single pilot aircraft. Will I still not be able to log this time as SIC under our Part 91 operation since technically I am not required crew if I understand this right?

Oh, and the Captain is certified to fly the Mustang as single pilot and also with an SIC. He will also be certified on the CJ2+ as both being able to fly with an SIC and as Single Pilot in type as well. So not sure if that makes a difference on either of these aircraft. I love my job, but it's kinda of a drag not being able to officially log the time as SIC since I hate for all this experience to count as nothing toward my future goals of remaining in corporate aviation.

Any guidance is appreciated on how I could possibly log the time in the CJ2+ under a Part 91 Flight Department (or heck, even the C510 time I have accrued right now since I do document my time in an "unofficial" logbook in case anyone asks how much time I have in the aircraft that was not able to be officially logged).
 
Why can't you log the time? Single pilot jets can be flown with singe pilot IN LIEU OF a SIC, but you can also use the SIC if you're not exercising that option eh?

Or said another way, all jets are certified as two pilot aircraft, but you have the ability to negate the need for that second pilot with an autopilot, but that still doesn't mean that you can't log the time as SIC if you have the proper training.

I mean I could be crazy, but that's how I've always understood the rule. The issue you're talking about comes in with aircraft like King Air's which ARE single pilot aircraft (everything but the 300/350, that is), but the insurance company requires a second pilot. In that case you CAN'T log the SIC time if it's part 91.
 
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All your PIC will need to do when he is at school is shoot an instrument approach with a right seater. It seems dumb, but it's what you need to do to check the box. I personally know of a one aircraft Part 91 flight department that operates a CJ2+ where both pilots legally log PIC and SIC time at the same time.
 
Mustang and CJ series are certified for minimum crew of 1. Train, you're confusing this situation with the Part 135 autopilot exemption. They're totally separate issues.

And since I have no experience with said circumstances, I google it and copy/paste:
You can log SIC in a single-pilot capable jet like the CJ family, provided the PIC (regardless if the hold the S type or not) has a current 61.58 endorsement.

If the PIC has, for example, the CE525s rating but no 61.58 endorsement, you cannot legally log SIC.
Click to expand...
 
CJ2+ is type certified both SP and crewed. You can log SIC and don't let anyone tell you different. Just make sure you have a CVR if you plan on logging SIC. It's a gotcha most people don't know about.

Source- CJ3 pic
 
I had a similar situation a while back where I flew as a second pilot on a Mustang. Because the plane is certified single pilot, and that pilot I flew with is typed as a single pilot, I could not (and did not) log SIC time.

My question for you though is if your captain is typed to fly the Mustang with an SIC, why couldn't you log SIC time then? Could you not be considered a required crew member even if he COULD fly single pilot? I also don't know enough about Citations though so I may be wrong...
 
If you operate the Mustang with one or more of the list of required equipment necessary for single pilot ops inop or removed you can (and are required) to have a SIC.

You can do this without even having a mechanic touch the airplane, because this is the KOEL for the Mustang:

GFC-700 autopilot (you really dont want to disable that)
*Headset with boom microphone
*The abbreviated normal procedures checklist from Cessna (PN510CLNP)
*The abbreviated emergency procedures checklist from Cessna
"Provisions" to store charts and plates that is accessible form the left seat.

The astrick items are items you can remove as a operator -- if you substitute a company made normal procedures checklist and remove the Cessna checklist, then you no longer in compliance with the KOEL because it calls specifically for the Cessna factory checklist.

I don't know what the KOEL for the CJ2+ is but it is probably similar.

You can check my work if you refer to the Limitations section of the Mustang AFM and find the KOEL, then reference the Single Pilot entry.
 
From the Type Data Certificate Sheet for the 525.

Minimum Crew for all Flights (see NOTE 5 for cockpit equipment/arrangement restrictions): One pilot (in the left pilot seat) plus additional equipment as specified in the Kinds of Operations Equipment List (KOEL) contained in the Limitations Section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual

OR

One pilot and one copilot


The 525 is type certified BOTH single pilot and crewed. To fly single pilot you are not flying under a waiver like the 500 series.

So what does that mean? To fly SP, you have to meet the first part of the TDCS, plus KOEL, however, just because you meet those requirements, does not mean you have operate single pilot. Why? Because the TDCS says so.

So as long as the PIC holds a current 61.58, you have a CVR and the SIC is qualified, you are 100% legal to log SIC. If you're not, your cheating yourself of flight time for no reason.
 
MikeOH58 said:
So as long as the PIC holds a current 61.58, you have a CVR and the SIC is qualified, you are 100% legal to log SIC. If you're not, your cheating yourself of flight time for no reason.
Click to expand...

That's not what the FAA's Letter of Interpretation says.
 
MikeOH58 said:
From the Type Data Certificate Sheet for the 525.

Minimum Crew for all Flights (see NOTE 5 for cockpit equipment/arrangement restrictions): One pilot (in the left pilot seat) plus additional equipment as specified in the Kinds of Operations Equipment List (KOEL) contained in the Limitations Section of the FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual

OR

One pilot and one copilot


The 525 is type certified BOTH single pilot and crewed. To fly single pilot you are not flying under a waiver like the 500 series.

So what does that mean? To fly SP, you have to meet the first part of the TDCS, plus KOEL, however, just because you meet those requirements, does not mean you have operate single pilot. Why? Because the TDCS says so.

So as long as the PIC holds a current 61.58, you have a CVR and the SIC is qualified, you are 100% legal to log SIC. If you're not, your cheating yourself of flight time for no reason.
Click to expand...
Maurus said:
Read this as it should answer your question.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not following TFaudree...Referencing your google search in post # 4

"You can log SIC in a single-pilot capable jet like the CJ family, provided the PIC (regardless if the hold the S type or not) has a current 61.58 endorsement.

If the PIC has, for example, the CE525s rating but no 61.58 endorsement, you cannot legally log SIC."

I agree with you 100%, and i'm pretty sure thats what I wrote, unless I typed it wrong. When I was typed I only did the (s). I did not do a 61.58. So I was like you mentioned above, a single pilot typed pilot without a 61.58. I would not be legal to use an SIC, or allow him or her to log the time. However, now that I have a 61.58, even though I do have a single pilot type, I am able to use an SIC, and he or she can log the flight time, so as long as they are qualified, airplane meets KOEL, and has a CVR. Because I am single pilot typed, does not mean I have to fly single pilot.
 
No one stops anyone from flying an aircraft with an SIC. The lack of being able to log the time sucks, but people can easily be found to occupy that right seat. Especially since it would be a good entry into the corporate world.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Nobody is disabling anything. A headset without a boom microphone is going to make an operation less safe?
Click to expand...

Ok. I used the wrong term. Removing equipment. And I never said it was unsafe. What I meant was that I thought it was retarded that the FAA seemingly couldn't see the reason for the pilot saying he was going to do it in order to allow the FNG to log SIC time.
 
Maurus said:
Read this as it should answer your question.

Keeping a separate log can't hurt as Insurance may look at the time differently.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I printed that out and saved it as it is what I suspected. And now I finally have proof.

Looks like I can log PIC time with my SIC rating for the legs I fly as the sole manipulator of the controls (very rare for that to happen except for on the rare ferry flight). At least I know, that is the only time I will be able to log anything in my professional logbook and it will be as PIC, not SIC.

I am sure many other First Officers in Part 91 fly in this situation since the Mustang, CJ2, CJ3, and CJ4 with some other business jets are certified as single pilot. How does anyone in this situation log flight time to eventually apply into a major airline in the future or into a company like Avantair? After all, there is a reason that P180 been my avatar from even before I was in flight training!

Do you count this "unofficial time" on your applications when they ask about total time in type and turbojet total time? Yet your time on the application as PIC will be next to nothing and your time as SIC will be nothing.
 
If it's acceptable to your boss and the Captain, just have him train to the C525 standards (61.58). There is NOTHING that states that he needs the "S". I considered completing re-current training without the "S" (61.55) so my SIC could log time. However, his desire to not remain in aviation was explained so that became mute.

It's a bad deal that you can't log either the Mustang or CJ time, the feds didn't think this one through
 
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