Civil Air Patrol
- Thread starter drumminpilot
- Start date
I was in CAP for a while. Went almost as far in the cadet program levels as aloft did. Instead of spending time to finish it all out though, I did quite a bit of SAR work. Started out sitting around talking on radios, and moved on to scanner/observer on searches for a number of hours during some larger searches we had. Found that kinda boring after a while, and moved on to ground searches, where actually shutting off the ELT on the ground, and educating the owners about keeping their battery from shorting out, checking ELTs after hard landings, and not leaving the ELT in the car trunk or on the porch when UPS throws it down there and you forget to open the box for a few hours.
Unfortunately for him, we found an older guy who was not IFR current, got into IMC and met the side of the hill a little short of his destination. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X07055&ntsbno=LAX97FA044&akey=1 if you want to read what the NTSB had to say about it. It wasn't a pretty site, but that little plane did ok. Upside down, strapped in still, with the panel and yoke being what caused the physical damage that could be seen.
Kinda puts a different light on my choices of where to fly a little, and makes me always want to keep my IFR current.
The real mission stuff is fun, you are helping out. But some that have been doing it for a long time get a little power hungry.
Josh
Unfortunately for him, we found an older guy who was not IFR current, got into IMC and met the side of the hill a little short of his destination. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X07055&ntsbno=LAX97FA044&akey=1 if you want to read what the NTSB had to say about it. It wasn't a pretty site, but that little plane did ok. Upside down, strapped in still, with the panel and yoke being what caused the physical damage that could be seen.
Kinda puts a different light on my choices of where to fly a little, and makes me always want to keep my IFR current.
The real mission stuff is fun, you are helping out. But some that have been doing it for a long time get a little power hungry.
Josh
Systems_Operator
New Member
rather off topic,...but...Wow...CAP!....man that brings back some WONDERFUL (read: very influential in the development of who I am now) memories when I was a cadet during my teens. Our squadron never really got into SAR, but man, we had the BEST Drill Team ever! - Won 1st place at National in Maxwell back in 84,85,86, 88 and 89. Heh,..I still have the blue and gold (CA Wing) shoulder cord and chest ribbon for winning that....
I've actually been thinking about rejoining to "pay forward" my learning of aviation to the kids these days as well as putting in some flight experiences for a good cause, SAR.
I've actually been thinking about rejoining to "pay forward" my learning of aviation to the kids these days as well as putting in some flight experiences for a good cause, SAR.
chunk75
Well-Known Member
My problem with CAP's public funding is that they don't seem to understand that they are accountable for the funds they receive. Recently, the AF's IG requested an audit. CAP refused! That's like your son not telling you where he took your car after borrowing the keys and using all the gas in the tank. Took a RAID by law enforcement to get the required files. CAP tried to fight the USAF in court. Seem silly to anyone? How about the fact that they sponsor a friggin' race team! Good use of my tax dollars? How about annual flights to Oshkosh from ALASKA!
CAP may be a cheap non-professional SAR force, they need to be held accountable for the public funds in which they are entrusted with. I'd rather see the organization wither on the vine off the govt. teat for a few years as a lesson than have the downright arrogance that eminates from their "leaders" infect other organizations that receive a piece of the gubbamint pie.
Chunk
CAP may be a cheap non-professional SAR force, they need to be held accountable for the public funds in which they are entrusted with. I'd rather see the organization wither on the vine off the govt. teat for a few years as a lesson than have the downright arrogance that eminates from their "leaders" infect other organizations that receive a piece of the gubbamint pie.
Chunk
aloft
New Member
I'm the last one to make excuses for what we call the "weasel empire" in CAP, but you don't have your facts straight, Chunk.
CAP has refused audits of corporate funds by the government, which, as a private entity, it has every right to do. The government is free to audit use of the federally appropriated funds that CAP receives, and does so annually. The distinction is important: not all of CAP's income is from tax dollars, and the federal funds go ONLY for very specific things like aircraft, vehicle and radio acquisition, operations and maintenance as it pertains to AF-assigned missions, and since the "privatization" of the national headquarters staff in '95, for the salaries and benefits of that staff, which used to be all active duty USAF personnel. These days, they also cover a fixed amount of uniforms for new cadets.
The race car sponsorship (which was just terminated) did not come out of federal money, but out of a corporate investment account (CAP's 'rainy day' fund). In fact, CAP just had to reimburse USAF a tidy sum for the salaries and benefits of headquarters personnel involved in the race car promotion.
For the record, absolutely NOTHING came of the federal search warrant served on the national hq a few years ago, except for some rather racy polaroids stored in the safe of the then-executive director. Not a single indictment, nothing. Smoke, but no fire.
And Systems Operator, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but I was at NCC in '84 & '89 and CA Wing was not the winner either year; NYWG's Bronx Group won in '84, and NJWG's Dragon drill team won in '89. Northeast Region had something of a dynasty going for most of the '80s, Illinois was their only serious competition.
CAP has refused audits of corporate funds by the government, which, as a private entity, it has every right to do. The government is free to audit use of the federally appropriated funds that CAP receives, and does so annually. The distinction is important: not all of CAP's income is from tax dollars, and the federal funds go ONLY for very specific things like aircraft, vehicle and radio acquisition, operations and maintenance as it pertains to AF-assigned missions, and since the "privatization" of the national headquarters staff in '95, for the salaries and benefits of that staff, which used to be all active duty USAF personnel. These days, they also cover a fixed amount of uniforms for new cadets.
The race car sponsorship (which was just terminated) did not come out of federal money, but out of a corporate investment account (CAP's 'rainy day' fund). In fact, CAP just had to reimburse USAF a tidy sum for the salaries and benefits of headquarters personnel involved in the race car promotion.
For the record, absolutely NOTHING came of the federal search warrant served on the national hq a few years ago, except for some rather racy polaroids stored in the safe of the then-executive director. Not a single indictment, nothing. Smoke, but no fire.
And Systems Operator, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but I was at NCC in '84 & '89 and CA Wing was not the winner either year; NYWG's Bronx Group won in '84, and NJWG's Dragon drill team won in '89. Northeast Region had something of a dynasty going for most of the '80s, Illinois was their only serious competition.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm the last one to make excuses for what we call the "weasel empire" in CAP, but you don't have your facts straight, Chunk. CAP has refused audits of corporate funds by the government, which, as a private entity, it has every right to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
That makes a difference!
[ QUOTE ]
The race car sponsorship (which was just terminated) did not come out of federal money, but out of a corporate investment account (CAP's 'rainy day' fund). In fact, CAP just had to reimburse USAF a tidy sum for the salaries and benefits of headquarters personnel involved in the race car promotion.
[/ QUOTE ]
It has? Well it qualified at Kentucky last night!
I'm the last one to make excuses for what we call the "weasel empire" in CAP, but you don't have your facts straight, Chunk. CAP has refused audits of corporate funds by the government, which, as a private entity, it has every right to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
That makes a difference!
[ QUOTE ]
The race car sponsorship (which was just terminated) did not come out of federal money, but out of a corporate investment account (CAP's 'rainy day' fund). In fact, CAP just had to reimburse USAF a tidy sum for the salaries and benefits of headquarters personnel involved in the race car promotion.
[/ QUOTE ]
It has? Well it qualified at Kentucky last night!
[ QUOTE ]
Have you done quite a bit of flying with CAP? I'm not too interested in the military lifestyle, therefore I was hoping I could be involved primarily for the flying and humanitarian reasons...
[/ QUOTE ]
No military lifestyle in the C.A.P. I'm involved in (CA and NV Wings). A lot of our cadets seem to attend the military academies and even have some of the academies fighting over them. One cadet, is heading to the Air Force Academy because they offered her a fighter pilot slot after graduation. She didn't want the tanker or sling wing slots from the other academies.
But I digress, basic military courtesies and customs are available for the senior member to learn. For the cadets, that training is mandatory. As a check pilot I have been reminded of my duty to present a good example to the rest of the pilots in one instance where I was wearing a patch not authorized by the current Stan/Eval (check pilot) guy, but required by the previous Stan/Eval guy. I didn't participate in missions until the current Stan/Eval guy got his paperwork completed and I became authorized. I could have taken the patch off and participated, but it was easier to find something else to do on the one occasion.
Saluting is a sign of respect. Some senior members choose to salute everyone, some of us use the handshake. If we are both in Air Force STYLE uniforms, then yeah, we'll salute each other, especially if cadets are around.
On that Federal Search Warrant, it prompted CAP National HQ to take a serious look at their Wings. Each state is a Wing. California failed miserably. We've killed off 4 people and destroyed five airplanes because we were too afraid to tell those pilots with poor judgment and macho attitudes to leave. CA Wing has mostly dismantled the "good 'ol boys" network and our accidents are far down. Still there was a prop strike just a few months ago because a pilot couldn't land elsewhere when faced with a stiff crosswind at the home airport.
Because of the wake-up call, CAP National has taken a hard look at the checkride system. We have found that crosswind takeoffs and landings, basic taxiing, and poor judgment cause around 85% of our accidents. They are also the most failed items on the annual checkrides.
The benefits of CAP?
For senior members by following guidelines and regulations:
Get a glider rating
Scholarships
Training in most fields of emergency services
Almost unlimited flying opportunities
Get to fly cadets on their first or pre-solo flights
Warp young minds into aviation
Model Rockets!!!!!
Travel all over your state
A very healthy respect of your local environment (mountains)
Mountain Fury Training (worth 7 years of CAP Membership Dues)
Ability to make a difference to your fellow aviators
For CFIs, the responsibility of giving checkrides, and being able to give a unit a shot in the arm. I'm heading north soon to give a unit checkrides, over a three day period that'll be 6 rides/training flights. That unit should have 4 more pilots by the time I'm done.
Learn Crew Resource Management
Use of CAP aircraft for instrument ratings, or advanced ratings ($42-65 an hour for a well maintained Cessna 182/206!)
Saving a life/lives (Nothing can beat the feeling of knowing that because YOU were there, someone is now alive, where if you weren't there, they may not have.)
Indirectly saving lives (how many cadets are we keeping off the streets, getting good grades, and forgoing drug addictions for a flying addiction?)
Conferences and other meetings
Giving lots of money to a good cause (Come And Pay)
And many many more…
I'm going to Vegas in August to attend the National Board Meeting. I will be taking sessions in aerospace education, being a better instructor, aircraft management, and several more. I will greet friends from across the country that I met in CAP.
Do yourself a favor. Spend time with at least two units before joining CAP. You will tell the difference and be able to find a place where you fit in. In a large national organization like CAP, each unit will vary. You may be unlucky and find the worst examples of why some people dislike CAP. You may be lucky and find some of the best units that are active and do search missions.
And you may be the person that takes the worst unit to the best. There is a gentleman in Los Angeles that joined CAP four years ago. Two years ago he was commanding his unit. The unit tripled its membership in a year and took an active role in emergency services. They did hundreds of hours in support of 9/11/01. One year ago he was managing the entire state's aircraft fleet (25). Because of him, the Wing started a glider program and earned 3 new airplanes to support the gliders. Last month he stepped into commanding the group of units that cover Los Angeles. He will revitalize the entire area. I would not be surprised if he is commanding the entire wing in 5 years. Not bad for someone who's day job is a loan officer for a small bank.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
CAP Member 8 years
CAP Check Pilot 3 years
Have you done quite a bit of flying with CAP? I'm not too interested in the military lifestyle, therefore I was hoping I could be involved primarily for the flying and humanitarian reasons...
[/ QUOTE ]
No military lifestyle in the C.A.P. I'm involved in (CA and NV Wings). A lot of our cadets seem to attend the military academies and even have some of the academies fighting over them. One cadet, is heading to the Air Force Academy because they offered her a fighter pilot slot after graduation. She didn't want the tanker or sling wing slots from the other academies.
But I digress, basic military courtesies and customs are available for the senior member to learn. For the cadets, that training is mandatory. As a check pilot I have been reminded of my duty to present a good example to the rest of the pilots in one instance where I was wearing a patch not authorized by the current Stan/Eval (check pilot) guy, but required by the previous Stan/Eval guy. I didn't participate in missions until the current Stan/Eval guy got his paperwork completed and I became authorized. I could have taken the patch off and participated, but it was easier to find something else to do on the one occasion.
Saluting is a sign of respect. Some senior members choose to salute everyone, some of us use the handshake. If we are both in Air Force STYLE uniforms, then yeah, we'll salute each other, especially if cadets are around.
On that Federal Search Warrant, it prompted CAP National HQ to take a serious look at their Wings. Each state is a Wing. California failed miserably. We've killed off 4 people and destroyed five airplanes because we were too afraid to tell those pilots with poor judgment and macho attitudes to leave. CA Wing has mostly dismantled the "good 'ol boys" network and our accidents are far down. Still there was a prop strike just a few months ago because a pilot couldn't land elsewhere when faced with a stiff crosswind at the home airport.
Because of the wake-up call, CAP National has taken a hard look at the checkride system. We have found that crosswind takeoffs and landings, basic taxiing, and poor judgment cause around 85% of our accidents. They are also the most failed items on the annual checkrides.
The benefits of CAP?
For senior members by following guidelines and regulations:
Get a glider rating
Scholarships
Training in most fields of emergency services
Almost unlimited flying opportunities
Get to fly cadets on their first or pre-solo flights
Warp young minds into aviation
Model Rockets!!!!!
Travel all over your state
A very healthy respect of your local environment (mountains)
Mountain Fury Training (worth 7 years of CAP Membership Dues)
Ability to make a difference to your fellow aviators
For CFIs, the responsibility of giving checkrides, and being able to give a unit a shot in the arm. I'm heading north soon to give a unit checkrides, over a three day period that'll be 6 rides/training flights. That unit should have 4 more pilots by the time I'm done.
Learn Crew Resource Management
Use of CAP aircraft for instrument ratings, or advanced ratings ($42-65 an hour for a well maintained Cessna 182/206!)
Saving a life/lives (Nothing can beat the feeling of knowing that because YOU were there, someone is now alive, where if you weren't there, they may not have.)
Indirectly saving lives (how many cadets are we keeping off the streets, getting good grades, and forgoing drug addictions for a flying addiction?)
Conferences and other meetings
Giving lots of money to a good cause (Come And Pay)
And many many more…
I'm going to Vegas in August to attend the National Board Meeting. I will be taking sessions in aerospace education, being a better instructor, aircraft management, and several more. I will greet friends from across the country that I met in CAP.
Do yourself a favor. Spend time with at least two units before joining CAP. You will tell the difference and be able to find a place where you fit in. In a large national organization like CAP, each unit will vary. You may be unlucky and find the worst examples of why some people dislike CAP. You may be lucky and find some of the best units that are active and do search missions.
And you may be the person that takes the worst unit to the best. There is a gentleman in Los Angeles that joined CAP four years ago. Two years ago he was commanding his unit. The unit tripled its membership in a year and took an active role in emergency services. They did hundreds of hours in support of 9/11/01. One year ago he was managing the entire state's aircraft fleet (25). Because of him, the Wing started a glider program and earned 3 new airplanes to support the gliders. Last month he stepped into commanding the group of units that cover Los Angeles. He will revitalize the entire area. I would not be surprised if he is commanding the entire wing in 5 years. Not bad for someone who's day job is a loan officer for a small bank.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
CAP Member 8 years
CAP Check Pilot 3 years
[ QUOTE ]
[. One cadet, is heading to the Air Force Academy because they offered her a fighter pilot slot after graduation. She didn't want the tanker or sling wing slots from the other academies.
[/ QUOTE ]
She knows she's going to have a fighter slot prior to heading to the zoo?
I find that difficult to believe. Your aircraft track is determined during pilot training based on needs of the AF, performance/ranking, etc. You don't know what type of plane you'll be flying prior to UPT (ENJJPT excluded), much less prior to attending the Academy without even knowing if you have a UPT slot.
[. One cadet, is heading to the Air Force Academy because they offered her a fighter pilot slot after graduation. She didn't want the tanker or sling wing slots from the other academies.
[/ QUOTE ]
She knows she's going to have a fighter slot prior to heading to the zoo?
I find that difficult to believe. Your aircraft track is determined during pilot training based on needs of the AF, performance/ranking, etc. You don't know what type of plane you'll be flying prior to UPT (ENJJPT excluded), much less prior to attending the Academy without even knowing if you have a UPT slot.
DrBenny
New Member
Hi!
My CFI is the commander for the local CAP at BWI. Do you live near here?
[ QUOTE ]
I have another question. This may be the ONLY way to fly easily in the DC area. So I'm wondering if CAP flights are considered military flights. If they are, then I'll be signing up for the CAP really soon!
[/ QUOTE ]
My CFI is the commander for the local CAP at BWI. Do you live near here?
[ QUOTE ]
I have another question. This may be the ONLY way to fly easily in the DC area. So I'm wondering if CAP flights are considered military flights. If they are, then I'll be signing up for the CAP really soon!
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't know what type of plane you'll be flying prior to UPT (ENJJPT excluded), much less prior to attending the Academy without even knowing if you have a UPT slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no reason to doubt her. She has connections I can only dream of having.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
You don't know what type of plane you'll be flying prior to UPT (ENJJPT excluded), much less prior to attending the Academy without even knowing if you have a UPT slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no reason to doubt her. She has connections I can only dream of having.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
Freight Guy
New Member
JN, you should listen to MikeD on this one, is your friend joining the Guard or attending USAFA? You do realize they start with 1000 people per class ( not all finish, go figure ), and merely graduating does not guarantee a UPT slot, there are quite a bit though. This young lady needs to curb her desire to tell ( untrue) stories like that. Even little white lies can earn her some serious honor code violations there. It may sound silly to you to hear that, but they take their honor code very serious, in fact the first thing the code says is " I will not lie ".
She don't got no guaranteed fighter slot out of the Academy.
She don't got no guaranteed fighter slot out of the Academy.
I'm not continuing this discussion further. There are some on this board that refuse to believe something really good can happen to someone that deserves it.
This gal had three academies fighting over her. CAP is losing a VERY valuable member this month and she's only 17. BTW, SHE is NOT telling this stuff, her commanding officer is after the paperwork was completed. She has a guaranteed slot depending on her completion of the academy and decision to pursue fighter aircraft. She would rather sink into a hole in the floor than be publicly recognized for her hard work of the last ten years.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
This gal had three academies fighting over her. CAP is losing a VERY valuable member this month and she's only 17. BTW, SHE is NOT telling this stuff, her commanding officer is after the paperwork was completed. She has a guaranteed slot depending on her completion of the academy and decision to pursue fighter aircraft. She would rather sink into a hole in the floor than be publicly recognized for her hard work of the last ten years.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
Freight Guy
New Member
I don't refuse to believe something good could happen for a person, I hope she does well. It seems to me that you're saying she applied to at least three Military Academies, was accepted by three and has decided to try the Air Force Academy but I have to throw the BS flag over her CAP CO saying that any of them were "fighting" over her, and the UPT slot with a fighter guarantee upon graduation.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not picking on you or your friend, just stating that there is a bit of embelishment in the details.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not picking on you or your friend, just stating that there is a bit of embelishment in the details.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not continuing this discussion further. There are some on this board that refuse to believe something really good can happen to someone that deserves it.
This gal had three academies fighting over her. CAP is losing a VERY valuable member this month and she's only 17. BTW, SHE is NOT telling this stuff, her commanding officer is after the paperwork was completed. She has a guaranteed slot depending on her completion of the academy and decision to pursue fighter aircraft. She would rather sink into a hole in the floor than be publicly recognized for her hard work of the last ten years.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you getting all riled up for? I'm not knocking on anybody. I'm simply saying how the system works. I've been there and done that regards UPT. In the military, there aren't any guarantees for anything. If she gets a UPT slot at ENJJPT, then she most likely will get a fighter, but she wouldn't know that until her junior year, and if anything is being promised to her before she's already joined the academy, then it's one of two things:
1. She's being lied to.
2. She's the next up and coming token.
I'm not continuing this discussion further. There are some on this board that refuse to believe something really good can happen to someone that deserves it.
This gal had three academies fighting over her. CAP is losing a VERY valuable member this month and she's only 17. BTW, SHE is NOT telling this stuff, her commanding officer is after the paperwork was completed. She has a guaranteed slot depending on her completion of the academy and decision to pursue fighter aircraft. She would rather sink into a hole in the floor than be publicly recognized for her hard work of the last ten years.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you getting all riled up for? I'm not knocking on anybody. I'm simply saying how the system works. I've been there and done that regards UPT. In the military, there aren't any guarantees for anything. If she gets a UPT slot at ENJJPT, then she most likely will get a fighter, but she wouldn't know that until her junior year, and if anything is being promised to her before she's already joined the academy, then it's one of two things:
1. She's being lied to.
2. She's the next up and coming token.
aloft
New Member
JediNein, they speak the truth; pilot assignments are truly at the whims of "the needs of the Air Force". Very literally, the ONLY students who know what aircraft they'll fly after graduation are Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve pilots. because they'll go back to their respective home units. The rest don't find out until "drop night", near the end of training. (They DO know whether they're destined for heavies or fast-movers much earlier in the course at "track-select", but won't know the specific airframe until drop night.)
Another former Spaatz cadet I know who graduated from USAFA in '97 was assigned as a T-37 instructor pilot after he completed pilot training, with a "guaranteed" fighter follow-on assignment. Well, he just reported to Dyess AFB to transition into the B-1. Why? He was guaranteed a fighter! Airlines aren't hiring, fighter pilots aren't getting out at forecast rates, the needs of the force dictate he gets the "bone". Hello, Dyess!
That's great another CAWG cadet was accepted to USAFA, but no one there is "guaranteed" a fighter. Bottom line, her commander is operating under a mistaken impression.
Another former Spaatz cadet I know who graduated from USAFA in '97 was assigned as a T-37 instructor pilot after he completed pilot training, with a "guaranteed" fighter follow-on assignment. Well, he just reported to Dyess AFB to transition into the B-1. Why? He was guaranteed a fighter! Airlines aren't hiring, fighter pilots aren't getting out at forecast rates, the needs of the force dictate he gets the "bone". Hello, Dyess!
That's great another CAWG cadet was accepted to USAFA, but no one there is "guaranteed" a fighter. Bottom line, her commander is operating under a mistaken impression.
I didn't mean to imply that soley because of CAP she is where she is.
H.S. Valdictorian (I didn't know you could get a 5.3 on a 4.0 scale)
ROTC (don't know what branch)
Eagle Scout (Explorers)
and a few thousand other things under her belt.
She may be in the Reserves, too.
Who knows where she'll be in 4 years (probably graduating as the Cadet Commander, knowing her).
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
H.S. Valdictorian (I didn't know you could get a 5.3 on a 4.0 scale)
ROTC (don't know what branch)
Eagle Scout (Explorers)
and a few thousand other things under her belt.
She may be in the Reserves, too.
Who knows where she'll be in 4 years (probably graduating as the Cadet Commander, knowing her).
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
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