Civil Air Patrol...what I have learned so far

Don't get me wrong, it's a good accomplishment for an organization of it's type.....in fact, a respectable accomplishment no matter how you slice it.

But trying to compare it to what the AF does now, or trying to act as if it were yesterday, is akin to the AF hinging only on Operaton Bolo from 1967......it's merely a footnote in the whole of the USAF. A comparison between CAP and USAF that is abject idiocy and moot. Bolo was a very successful operation, mind you, but still a footnote in AF history. CAPers/SCPers who are so held on to the two sunk U-Boats, should see it the same. CAPs other activities and contributions since those two U-Boats far overshadow that singular event, IMO.

Here's the thing. CAP's coastal patrol efforts in WWII go far beyond two sunk U-boats, and anyone who makes light of CAP's coastal patrol doesn't have an adequate understanding of how serious the situation was along the eastern seaboard in early 1942. In the first 8 months of that year, the German Navy was having a freaking turkey shoot off the eastern seaboard. With the US Navy distracted by the black eye received at Pearl Harbor just a month before, German U-boats sunk 602 American vessels, mostly troop and cargo transports destined for the European theater, deep-sixing over 3 million tons of war materiel. Both the US Navy and US Army were woefully underprepared to defend against the U-boat threat, which threatened to radically alter the shape of the war had it continued unabated. (For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_happy_time )

With virtually zero notice--CAP had been formed only 6-8 weeks earlier--the first coastal patrol base was stood up and planes were in the air to help stem the U-boat threat. Military attack aircraft were few and far between as most were needed elsewhere (so much for defense being the defense department's top priority--then as now), and they couldn't be everywhere all the time. CAP planes initially served only as lookouts for U-boats, calling in Navy attack aircraft to deal with the enemy as they were found--until one day, a U-boat grounded itself on a sand bar for over 2 hours, while a CAP plane orbited idly, waiting for a Navy attack aircraft that never came. After that, at no less than Hap Arnold's order, CAP aircraft were rigged to carry bombs and depth charges, and CAP aircrews subsequently attacked U-boats on 57 separate occasions--not just the two "sunk or seriously damaged" everyone hears about. They were a major player in the defense of the largest wartime sealift ever conducted.

After the war, German Naval commanders cited CAP's coastal patrol aircraft as the primary reason they abandoned their U-boat attacks along the eastern seaboard. So the big deal is not that CAP sunk two subs, it's that CAP essentially won a major battle in the war effort. As both Daffy and Hacker have said, many units have a plethora of campaign streamers hanging on their unit guidon or flag, but not all contributions by all those units are equal in terms of impact they had on the war. Few, if any, of the bomber or fighter groups in Europe can honestly say their efforts had the same impact on the war than the 509th Composite Group, whose atomic bombings effectively ended the war. And thus, though CAP's coastal patrol operations weren't all that dangerous, daring or dramatic as those taking place where the "real fighting" was going on, they had an enormous impact on the war in Europe.

So why is CAP still talking about this? For starters, it's the only time CAP ever had a combatant role, or likely ever will again. That's our wartime service, period. There is no subsequent Operation Bolo to talk about. It was a big deal, whether Daffy and Hacker choose to believe it or not, and is the reason that CAP is the official civilian auxiliary to the Air Force today, instead of another AOPA or EAA.

But like others have said, it's but one feather of many in CAP's cap; the organization has done plenty of other things since then, and those are the emphasis today, not its WWII operations.

I guess I really don't get why the AF dudes here are making a big deal of this. Actually...I do; everyone needs someone to feel superior to, and for the Air Force, it's CAP. But really, isn't that a tad pathetic? It's like an Olympic decathlete taking pride in the fact they're better at sports than those who compete in the Special Olympics.
 
Aloft, I wouldn't say it's an AF superioriy complex, but more of a CAP inferiority complex, in this case on your end...to me, that's pathetic. If you actually looked beyond your personal bias, you'd actually understand that no one is shooting YOU down personally, but you can't seem to see that. I was in CAP, I know the history, I can speak to it. I've seen the good and bad. ONE of the things I've seen on the bad side is just this thing, and I've explained why I think it is. To THOSE people, I say treat the WWII ops for the feather in the cap that it is, and a good one at that; not your soul focus. Hell, it wasn't my sole focus when I was there, and we had people that did hinge on it. Talk about living in the past......

Those good guys in CAP who are professional, do their job well, etc, they represent CAP well. Good on them.

Those Tools who try to throw rank around (which I've seen, both when I was a cadet and through the years), couldn't "lead" themselves out of a box, and just want to play pseudo-AF; they represent the proverbial Swivel Chair Patrol. Those are the people I'd prefer to not have as an AF auxiliary.....be better off without them.

Point is, everywhere has their good and bad.

Lighten up........don't be so touchy everytime CAP is brought up.

And yes, trying to make a comparison to, or trying to say what contributions a unit is or isn't making in the OEF theatre, when you've been safe in Utah the whole time, is ignorant and idiotic; especially when you add your left-wing slant to it. And even more so if you're trying to say that one F-15E sqdn hasn't won the war against the entire taliban.......need to brush up on what airpower can and can't do in your spare time.
 
Mike, chill.

I'm not taking this personally in the slightest, 'cept for the backhanded insult you just tossed my way in your last post. It's got nothing to do with me, so don't make it personal.

My ENTIRE point is that those who are quick to dismiss CAP's wartime efforts either have a need to put CAP down to feel better about themselves (seems to run rampant in Air Force circles), an inadequate knowledge of that particular piece of history, or both. I've read up on it, and it's impressive no matter how you slice it.

But your insistence on making light of it, that I just don't get. CAP gets a hell of a lot more respect from the other services than it does from the Air Force. Now why do you suppose that is?
 
Mike, chill.

I'm not taking this personally in the slightest, 'cept for the backhanded insult you just tossed my way in your last post. It's got nothing to do with me, so don't make it personal.

My ENTIRE point is that those who are quick to dismiss CAP's wartime efforts either have a need to put CAP down to feel better about themselves (seems to run rampant in Air Force circles), an inadequate knowledge of that particular piece of history, or both. I've read up on it, and it's impressive no matter how you slice it.

But your insistence on making light of it, that I just don't get. CAP gets a hell of a lot more respect from the other services than it does from the Air Force. Now why do you suppose that is?

Aloft, you made it personal with your last post and you know it, you knew what you were doing when you lobbed rounds my way. Don't act like the Israelis vis-a-vis the USS Liberty now. I was actually giving praise where due, while acknowleging the bad and ways to fix it. No one is dismissing CAPs wartime accomplishments.....to do so would be ignorant of history, and yes it is impressive. My only point was to those particular people that hinge on that accomplishment as if that's the only important thing CAP has done in 60 years......not everyone does that, of course. CAP has made differences in many ways with it's varying missions, one of it's biggest and most well known being the SAR efforts. And good on them. Just like good on them for the WWII efforts. One far outweighs the other, though IMO, in sum-total as well as recency. And that's fine...there's nothing wrong with that. That was my only point. Thats what I emphasized as a cadet, while still recognizing the history of the organization.

There's good and bad in every organization. CAP has the good people, SCP has the tools. Just as Air Force has the good people, Air Farce has the tools. And I'll call any of them on it, on both sides.
 
Thanks for this thread.

Reminded me that this has got to be where all the REAL pilots must hang out. Come on we all know deep down inside you all wear your aviators and uniforms to the market, went to Gulfstream and now fly for Gojets.....oh and when you do fly a 172 (with your aviators) you all say "Any traffic please advise"
 
:confused:I've been in CAP working for group III HQ in the Dallas area for quite a while and I don't remember this incident. Whats your source? How long ago?

The Air Force makes CAP pilots work hard to stay current in the program nowadays. Lots of extra safety related paperwork and training, flight releases on every flight, proficiency above what the FAA requires, Etc.

CAP don't have base commanders, squadron, group, and Wing Commanders but no Base Commanders.


Well i got the terminology wrong, but ive heard plenty of stories about the group over at hqz, none of them very pleasant.
 
Is this a bad April fools joke?:rolleyes: I'm a 1stLt in CAP and there's definitely too much bitching in this thread.:banghead: Who cares! CAP serves a purpose and there are those that represent CAP; it's roles and values; and there are those tool bags who do it for the power trip and make the rest of us and the organization look bad.
 
I'm guessing you never considered that these "stories" might have no basis in fact....



absolutely not. I take everything i hear at face value. As a matter of fact im about to get a large some of money from a Nigerian prince, just have to give him a good faith payment.



Seriously tho, two different people told me that story, one of them has been a pilot in the area for over 20 years, and the other is a local DPE. So im sure they were both just blowing smoke.
 
Is this a bad April fools joke?:rolleyes: I'm a 1stLt in CAP and there's definitely too much bitching in this thread.:banghead: Who cares! CAP serves a purpose and there are those that represent CAP; it's roles and values; and there are those tool bags who do it for the power trip and make the rest of us and the organization look bad.

Wow, you must really be experienced then.
 
CAP gets a hell of a lot more respect from the other services than it does from the Air Force. Now why do you suppose that is?
I'll address this. I feel it is because USAF has a front row seat when we screw up. And though we rarely make the top brass conduct synchronized face-palming, it's our lest then stellar moments that get remembered far longer than the many more times we've made them proud.
 
[modhat] If you have to ask who this is addressed to, then unfortunately it was probably you. Give it a rest. If you have something of substance to add to the thread, then feel free to do so. If your only response is a dig on the previous poster/post, save the keystrokes. You're not doing anyone any good and making yourself look like an ass. [/modhat]
 
I'll address this. I feel it is because USAF has a front row seat when we screw up. And though we rarely make the top brass conduct synchronized face-palming, it's our lest then stellar moments that get remembered far longer than the many more times we've made them proud.
I don't disagree, but the average AF member hasn't a clue about the real "aw crap" moments (Pineda's ACSC tests, to name one); all they know about is the overweight CAP 2d Lt who tried to get them to salute him (as if AF 2d Lts never committed gross buffoonery either). Conversely, they also don't have a clue about the real "atta boy" moments, either.

Bottom line, the average AF member just doesn't have a clue as it pertains to CAP (and, sadly, this is becoming the case more and more with AF people assigned to CAP-USAF, whose JOB it is to be fully up to speed on CAP...but I digress). This is probably CAP's fault, but at least inroads are being made; I know that there is a brief primer on CAP in the AF's Aerospace Basic Course for new officers, so at least the officer corps should know who CAP is, if not what we do.
 
I don't disagree, but the average AF member hasn't a clue about the real "aw crap" moments (Pineda's ACSC tests, to name one); all they know about is the overweight CAP 2d Lt who tried to get them to salute him (as if AF 2d Lts never committed gross buffoonery either). Conversely, they also don't have a clue about the real "atta boy" moments, either.

But it's like that anywhere, unfortunately. One screwup will outweigh 10 good deeds. Sucks but true.....again, happens anyplace, and isn't right. CAP, also like anyplace, has more atta-boy moments than buffoonery. They just don't get seen since they're part of normal-business. Which is too bad.

Curiously, how is the ACSC test an aw-crap moment?

Bottom line, the average AF member just doesn't have a clue as it pertains to CAP (and, sadly, this is becoming the case more and more with AF people assigned to CAP-USAF, whose JOB it is to be fully up to speed on CAP...but I digress). This is probably CAP's fault, but at least inroads are being made; I know that there is a brief primer on CAP in the AF's Aerospace Basic Course for new officers, so at least the officer corps should know who CAP is, if not what we do.

How much, though, does the average AF person have to do with CAP? Apart from pilots/aircrew? Take the vast numbers of other AFSCs out there, both enlisted as well as officer, and how many would have had any operational need or opportunity to work with CAP (besides having been a member themselves...but that's own choice)?

By the same token, how many CAP members know much about the AF apart from the flying aspect? I mean the nuts and bolts jobs in the AF? I'm sure there are some. But the point is, it's really neither side's fault that no one knows a ton about the other; since only a small part of the AF would ever have the need/opportunity to interact with CAP, and vice-versa with CAP interacting with only that small part of the AF. Sucks, but just is, unfortunately.
 
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