Children of the Magenta (Video)

PeanuckleCRJ said:
As mastery of both is so key. It is never an "if," but when you're going to mash the wrong button at some point and have to unscrew yourself. Recognition of the FMA as well as seeing the pitch/power changes that you expect to see is absolutely critical. For example, if you are told to discontinue the approach on the 320 but maintain current altitude and "tap TOGA" just out of rote habit, you've just screwed yourself into a 1000 foot high parabola if you try to button click your way out of it. Or, you can just go "ah shiat!" and turn off the AP and not have to do paperwork.

Including your anticipated level of automation in your briefing I think is a good thing so the other guy can anticipate and hopefully trap any errors that may come up... and also if your plan changes, let your partner know so they can be on the same page. Team environment!
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Yeah I see what you're getting at, I would throw your example into my "immediately unsafe condition" condition. Hitting another plane would be pretty unsafe if that was the reason they wanted you to hold altitude. :)
 
UAL747400 said:
Yeah I see what you're getting at, I would throw your example into my "immediately unsafe condition" condition. Hitting another plane would be pretty unsafe if that was the reason they wanted you to hold altitude. :)
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We were coming into ATL a few months ago on the arrival and it tied us into 27L, which is the center arrival runway. This 757 comes sweeping in from the south about a mile and a half in front of us and 3000 feet below us. Cue simultaneous "uhhhhh" from both of us. The CA queried ATC who responded with "oh yeah, he made a boo-boo."

About 5 seconds later you see the 757 start listing lazily to the left and lined back up for 28... whoopsadaisy!
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
We were coming into ATL a few months ago on the arrival and it tied us into 27L, which is the center arrival runway. This 757 comes sweeping in from the south about a mile and a half in front of us and 3000 feet below us. Cue simultaneous "uhhhhh" from both of us. The CA queried ATC who responded with "oh yeah, he made a boo-boo."

About 5 seconds later you see the 757 start listing lazily to the left and lined back up for 28... whoopsadaisy!
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What's the problem? It's just the ole double-sidestep maneuver...
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
As mastery of both is so key. It is never an "if," but when you're going to mash the wrong button at some point and have to unscrew yourself. Recognition of the FMA as well as seeing the pitch/power changes that you expect to see is absolutely critical. For example, if you are told to discontinue the approach on the 320 but maintain current altitude and "tap TOGA" just out of rote habit, you've just screwed yourself into a 1000 foot high parabola if you try to button click your way out of it. Or, you can just go "ah shiat!" and turn off the AP and not have to do paperwork.

Including your anticipated level of automation in your briefing I think is a good thing so the other guy can anticipate and hopefully trap any errors that may come up... and also if your plan changes, let your partner know so they can be on the same page. Team environment!
Click to expand...

Instead of hitting Approach, second autopilot once cleared for the approach, a guy I was flying with hit A/thr and second autopilot.

Simple mistake that can happen, but needs correction. Not fixate on why the thrust locked. Sir, loc coming in, you want to turn manually and hit approach?


Or not activating approach. Flaps 2, 180 knots. You know what's coming next. Like Geico's Maxwell the pig, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

I just grabbed the thrust levers and slapped them to idle. That was not the time to grab a speed knob and pull it and dial down. If that was done, flaps over speed woulda happened. Immediately pulling thrust to idle prevents speed from getting away from a person.


Proficiency in automation + proficiency in manual flying = well rounded pilot.
 
Polar742 said:
You don't know what you're talking about.

Until you work the schoolhouse and see how people perform, you're speaking from your occasional line flight.
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As far as ATN, this is very true. I see day in and out people reacting in high stress situations, despite my efforts to set them at ease.

The one common denominator that I have seen is the autoflight dependent button pusher will inevitably kill everyone when trying to unscrew themselves from critical errors on said button pushing. AF447 is a good example of this. The pilot that has a true mastery of stick and rudder and the autoflight makes it look like nothing happened, regardless of the level of automation. Following up, the pilot that is a bit iffy on the autoflight but is a great stick and rudder pilot knows when it's all f'd and takes control with similar results to the latter.

More demos of similar in the morning... dual FMGC failure resulting in both pilots flying C-172 style approaches to a low level rejected landing is in the script. My record is guys unable to make it below 1000 feet due to fishing for the course despite my prompting (day 1 is training and for them to grow!).
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
As far as ATN, this is very true. I see day in and out people reacting in high stress situations, despite my efforts to set them at ease.

The one common denominator that I have seen is the autoflight dependent button pusher will inevitably kill everyone when trying to unscrew themselves from critical errors on said button pushing. AF447 is a good example of this. The pilot that has a true mastery of stick and rudder and the autoflight makes it look like nothing happened, regardless of the level of automation. Following up, the pilot that is a bit iffy on the autoflight but is a great stick and rudder pilot knows when it's all f'd and takes control with similar results to the latter.

More demos of similar in the morning... dual FMGC failure resulting in both pilots flying C-172 style approaches to a low level rejected landing is in the script. My record is guys unable to make it below 1000 feet due to fishing for the course despite my prompting (day 1 is training and for them to grow!).
Click to expand...

Come instrument checkride time in the 117, damn near fully automated plane, the standard caveat was "use all, some, or none of the automation you like for the instrument approaches. However, any mistake the airplane makes automation-wise, your fault or its fault, you buy the downgrade for it."
 
MikeD said:
Come instrument checkride time in the 117, damn near fully automated plane, the standard caveat was "use all, some, or none of the automation you like for the instrument approaches. However, any mistake the airplane makes automation-wise, your fault or its fault, you buy the downgrade for it."
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Are you allowed to tell the full version of the story about the plane trying to kidnap you to Mexico yet?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
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Yeah, no. This is very contrary to current industry practices and recommendations, and a good reason you were probably not a check airman or in the training department.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
As far as ATN, this is very true. I see day in and out people reacting in high stress situations, despite my efforts to set them at ease.

The one common denominator that I have seen is the autoflight dependent button pusher will inevitably kill everyone when trying to unscrew themselves from critical errors on said button pushing. AF447 is a good example of this. The pilot that has a true mastery of stick and rudder and the autoflight makes it look like nothing happened, regardless of the level of automation. Following up, the pilot that is a bit iffy on the autoflight but is a great stick and rudder pilot knows when it's all f'd and takes control with similar results to the latter.

More demos of similar in the morning... dual FMGC failure resulting in both pilots flying C-172 style approaches to a low level rejected landing is in the script. My record is guys unable to make it below 1000 feet due to fishing for the course despite my prompting (day 1 is training and for them to grow!).
Click to expand...

So you see this as well then. I'll bet we're not the only two to notice this.
 
dasleben said:
Yeah, no. This is very contrary to current industry practices and recommendations, and a good reason you were probably not a check airman or in the training department.
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I actually did work in the training department many moons ago. And FYI, my last airline disagreed with the stick and rudder mantra that is wrongly taking hold today. The focus was on automation. Not every airline shares what you consider to be "current industry practices and recommendations."

Cptnchia said:
Yet you think guys with many thousands of hours over a 20+ year career are wrong and you feel the need to lecture?
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Lecture? We simply disagree.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I actually did work in the training department many moons ago. And FYI, my last airline disagreed with the stick and rudder mantra that is wrongly taking hold today. The focus was on automation. Not every airline shares what you consider to be "current industry practices and recommendations."



Lecture? We simply disagree.
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Well, you have Russian pilots who have a KAL background siding with you, so there's that. I don't think that's something to be proud of, though.

They also believe a less than 10,000' tall cumulus cloud can produce hail, and constantly paint the city we're flying into instead of looking for actual returns.:confused:
 
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