Children of the Magenta (Video)

ATN_Pilot said:
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
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Yikes. That is literally the exact opposite of what should be said.

Gonzo said:
I heard about it, holy poop that could have been ugly. How it got to the point it did is crazy.
Should not be out in the public, let's just say it was ugly.
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Yep, it's proprietary and will never be out in the public, but it speaks to this very issue. FMA awareness and verification plus seeing the pitch/power scene that you desire is so incredibly critical.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Worrying about the stick and rudder is a mistake. The focus needs to be on understanding the automation and encouraging its use. Every check airman should be slapping people upside the head when they turn off the automation at the first sign of anything unusual. Make them learn it! Don't let them take the cop out of "click click, click click."
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Nope...

Balance. Be good at both, no excuses.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Yikes. That is literally the exact opposite of what should be said.



Yep, it's proprietary and will never be out in the public, but it speaks to this very issue. FMA awareness and verification plus seeing the pitch/power scene that you desire is so incredibly critical.
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Are you talking about the incident in the "Are you a Thrustworthy Pilot" document?

If airlines kept things proprietary and never out in the public, planes would crash more when others miss out from learning an important lesson that could have avoided a future accident.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Boeing? Airbus? Automation issue?

If you can't give specifics, how about just a generic?
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I said earlier "it was a narrowbody that I love to hate," so that should narrow things down for most people. ;)

Mismanagement of automation, not understanding what they were seeing, and not taking assertive control. PM me on Facebook.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I said earlier "it was a narrowbody that I love to hate," so that should narrow things down for most people. ;)

Mismanagement of automation, not understanding what they were seeing, and not taking assertive control. PM me on Facebook.
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Unfortunately I'm not on facebook anymore, haven't been for over a year :)

Can I give you my email?
 
Sometimes no amount of button pushing will help you in time. Classic example coming on the Sadde 6 arrival into LAX from the north and SMO transition, where they get you a right base 24R. On a visual day sometimes they'll cut it in close. Now you can sit there and try and hit buttons, dial vertical speed, you're on glidepath but not LOC yet, and continue doing more button pushing............. OR. You can go click, click, this plane, that runway.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sometimes no amount of button pushing will help you in time. Classic example coming on the Sadde 6 arrival into LAX from the north and SMO transition, where they get you a right base 24R. On a visual day sometimes they'll cut it in close. Now you can sit there and try and hit buttons, dial vertical speed, you're on glidepath but not LOC yet, and continue doing more button pushing............. OR. You can go click, click, this plane, that runway.
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Bingo!
 
UAL747400 said:
I agree with you entirely on that!

However, I will argue that if you're a good stick, you'll better recognize when the automation is doing something you wouldn't do if you were hand flying. Like monitoring a new pilot that is flying, uh, weird.
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Yep, I agree with that. I'll also add that when you're a "good" stick and rudder pilot, you also can still operate the airplane if you end up getting into some mode confusion or what have you simply by getting rid of the automation that's creating the confusion. If you're a poor stick and rudder pilot and you get into a situation where you say, "uhh, why is it doing that?" you may lack the appropriate wherewithal to "un-screw" yourself. Just my observation.
 
UAL747400 said:
I agree with you entirely on that!

However, I will argue that if you're a good stick, you'll better recognize when the automation is doing something you wouldn't do if you were hand flying. Like monitoring a new pilot that is flying, uh, weird.
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When I flew the CRJ, I was a definitely a child of the magenta line. However a few years down the road, I was engineering for about a solid month on a plane with the autopilot MEL'ed. One day, nearing hour 24 of duty while watching @TallWeeds fly with both feet up on the foot rests and two fingers on the yoke, navigating VOR to VOR in our /A 727, flying with higher precision than our autopilot, my tune on automation changed. Now that is my goal. Granted, he did have me as the auto-throttles.
 
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ppragman said:
Yep, I agree with that. I'll also add that when you're a "good" stick and rudder pilot, you also can still operate the airplane if you end up getting into some mode confusion or what have you simply by getting rid of the automation that's creating the confusion. If you're a poor stick and rudder pilot and you get into a situation where you say, "uhh, why is it doing that?" you may lack the appropriate wherewithal to "un-screw" yourself. Just my observation.
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Eh, I think if you're proficient in the automation as well, you could button click your way out of a problem just as easily. I'm just as against letting proficiency in the automation parish as hand flying. I believe you should have both. I do think that hand flying skills can coorelate into operating/monitoring the automation, but not the other way around though.

I'm not really a fan of "just click it off" unless it's immediately putting the airplane in an unsafe condition. Mainly because I don't know where the PMs head is. They might be watching a system for an anomaly, for example, and be way behind me for awhile before they catch up. I guess a "hey, are you on the same page as me? I'm going manual." could take care of that.
 
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UAL747400 said:
Eh, I think if you're proficient in the automation as well, you could button click your way out of a problem just as easily. I'm just as against letting proficiency in the automation parish as hand flying. I believe you should have both. I do think that hand flying skills can coorelate into operating/monitoring the automation, but not the other way around though.

I'm not really a fan of "just click it off" unless it's immediately putting the airplane in an unsafe condition. Mainly because I don't know where the PMs head is. They might be watching a system for an anomaly, for example, and be way behind me for awhile before they catch up. I guess a "hey, are you on the same page as me? I'm going manual." could take care of that.
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As mastery of both is so key. It is never an "if," but when you're going to mash the wrong button at some point and have to unscrew yourself. Recognition of the FMA as well as seeing the pitch/power changes that you expect to see is absolutely critical. For example, if you are told to discontinue the approach on the 320 but maintain current altitude and "tap TOGA" just out of rote habit, you've just screwed yourself into a 1000 foot high parabola if you try to button click your way out of it. Or, you can just go "ah shiat!" and turn off the AP and not have to do paperwork.

Including your anticipated level of automation in your briefing I think is a good thing so the other guy can anticipate and hopefully trap any errors that may come up... and also if your plan changes, let your partner know so they can be on the same page. Team environment!
 
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