Challenger crashed onto highway in Naples FL

jhugz said:
Practicing something in the sim at best once every couple of years with zero room for margin, and then duplicating it in a high stress once in a lifetime event isn’t a recipe of success.
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I don’t see ditching in the qual or cq profiles either?
 
Wardogg said:
Do all airplanes float? Evac in a sinking aircraft isn’t any easier than a burning one I would think.
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Heavily depends on the airplane and how intact it is upon water landing.
Land based airplanes CAN be certified for water landing. Has to do specifically with floating time.

Evac a water landing non-sea plane, still intact is not really that difficult. See Airbus USAirways 1549
A burning aircraft severely limits the exit options.
Unless you fragment the airplane... then everywhere is the exit. See Souix City United 232

As stated above... sometimes having too MUCH energy is a problem.
Pilots sometimes forget that you can slip a swept wing aircraft.
 
Southern DC9. CA told the FO numerous times, I see fields, let’s go for a field. FO stated emphatically with command that No, Bill, you got to find me a highway!


They went for a highway. Wing hits a gas station, exploded, a family in a station wagon burns to death, both pilots die, and I think about half the passengers died.

In retrospect, a field would have been a far better option.

Highways like this case, are full of objects that can rip your wings off. Ripped wing, one spark, and you’re on fire with limited chances of escape. Not to mention, a deformed cabin that makes escape impossible. They are lucky the baggage compartment door was the one that opened allowing them to escape.


I still think I’d prefer water. Not open ocean, a standard Florida lake type. Calm water. You won’t kill anyone on terra firma. Plus, less chances of the wings hitting something and ensuing fire.


Just food for thought, I guess there isn’t really a right or wrong answer. A highway full of cars is going to go bad for a lot of people that never signed up for an airline ticket.
 
bp said:
I don’t see ditching in the qual or cq profiles either?
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Our initial qual course for both the little and big Airbus have a double engine failure scenario just after coasting out that give you a choice of ditching or trying to get back to land. Our initial for the little Airbus used to have a super intense scenario with a uncontrollably cargo fire that burns through to the cabin somewhere around ETP that forced a (night time) ditching scenario with a cockpit full of fog machine smoke. And the requal course I just did on the 330 this spring had a volcanic ash encounter that turned into a double engine failure and a dead stick landing into Samoa out of all places.
 
BobDDuck said:
Our initial qual course for both the little and big Airbus have a double engine failure scenario just after coasting out that give you a choice of ditching or trying to get back to land. Our initial for the little Airbus used to have a super intense scenario with a uncontrollably cargo fire that burns through to the cabin somewhere around ETP that forced a (night time) ditching scenario with a cockpit full of fog machine smoke. And the requal course I just did on the 330 this spring had a volcanic ash encounter that turned into a double engine failure and a dead stick landing into Samoa out of all places.
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those are good scenarios and things I would like to train.
did you land in samoa or just put it in the water? dead stick with a crazed windshield from ash or could you still see outside?
 
BobDDuck said:
Our initial qual course for both the little and big Airbus have a double engine failure scenario just after coasting out that give you a choice of ditching or trying to get back to land. Our initial for the little Airbus used to have a super intense scenario with a uncontrollably cargo fire that burns through to the cabin somewhere around ETP that forced a (night time) ditching scenario with a cockpit full of fog machine smoke. And the requal course I just did on the 330 this spring had a volcanic ash encounter that turned into a double engine failure and a dead stick landing into Samoa out of all places.
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The Duck be like, ladies and gentlemen, we’ve run into a slight problem, both engines have quit. We are trying our damnedest to get them started, I trust you’re not in too much distress. :)
 
bp said:
those are good scenarios and things I would like to train.
did you land in samoa or just put it in the water? dead stick with a crazed windshield from ash or could you still see outside?
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Sim couldn't replicate a scratched windshield so visuals were normal. Actually managed to put it down (and stop it) on the runway.
 
BobDDuck said:
Our initial qual course for both the little and big Airbus have a double engine failure scenario just after coasting out that give you a choice of ditching or trying to get back to land. Our initial for the little Airbus used to have a super intense scenario with a uncontrollably cargo fire that burns through to the cabin somewhere around ETP that forced a (night time) ditching scenario with a cockpit full of fog machine smoke. And the requal course I just did on the 330 this spring had a volcanic ash encounter that turned into a double engine failure and a dead stick landing into Samoa out of all places.
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Legitimately curious…is both engines out a modeled maneuver in the sim? Digging deep here but I thought I recalled something about FFS certification requiring flight test data to model maneuvers required for training and checking and everything else being the best guess of the sim’s software. I know the NearJet sim went from meh to bucking bronco in high altitude stalls after the FAA mandated enhanced aerodynamic models for that maneuver.
 
jhugz said:
I’m not trying to Monday Morning QB this accident. The FO’s comment just stuck with me. Putting it into a large body of water is easier as all you have to do is manage energy. You don’t have to manage energy and hit a specific point on pavement too.
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Assuming smooth water of course. Got a bit of a swell going and you might as well nose dive into a parking lot .
 
FWIW, no fields or good amount of water around here.
 

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