At the tail end of my corporate flying career, I remember venting about this to our flight department manager over burritos at El Tarasco in El Segundo after finishing up a trip together in LAX. I had just previously done a contract trip and my flying partner was frustratingly bad. It's operations like this that give 135 and corporate a bad reputation and ruin it for the many pilots who are out there flying professionally. I've met some of the best pilots and some of the worst during my time in that segment of the industry. The lack of standardization from many operators certainly doesn't help. Talking to management about notoruously weak pilots in both seats and their answer was always "oh we always make sure to pair them with a strong Captain/FO". With the way things are going it might not always be possible anymore, leading to stuff like this. My advice was always to fly to your own standard, regardless of who's sitting next to you. This is true in both seats. I had to have "the talk" with an FO on a G-IV contract trip who was a really nice guy but super passive. The last captain he was with almost ran them off the end after floating half way down the runway then nailing the brakes. Don't let some • kill you. It was a great learning experience getting a masterclass from the good ones and survival skills from the weak ones.
Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released
- Thread starter schloopy
- Start date
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
dmcaso
Well-Known Member
What is it with poor to non-existent preflights? I mean forget the passengers for a minute - do you even care about your own safety? Leaving those covers on says A LOT more about this crew than people realize. No wonder they handled the rest of the flight the way they did.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Trying to pretend that @Cherokee_Cruiser is off base here is hilarious. Corporate aviation has one fatal accident after another, with many of them posted here with their own threads on a regular basis, while meanwhile 121 airlines go more than a decade without a single fatality. Stop gaslighting us. Corporate aviation is significantly more dangerous than airline travel.
KLB
Well-Known Member
That was my theory also. The easiest way (a quickest way to waste 5 minutes of your life disconnecting and resetting the batteries) to get the rudder limiter fault is the power up with the covers on. So assuming they turn the probes on with the pitot cover on, I can see it melting instantly. I can see this crew hastily removing it without much inspection.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Are the pitot covers on a 300 accessible to flight crew during a walk around? Meaning, can they physically reach the pitot covers?
When are the pitot tubes energized for heating? It’s hard to believe someone would remove a melted pitot cover and just call it good, but nothing would surprise me at this point.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Yes, as along as you're not the Rice Brothers, you can reach them. There's a way to lean off the stairs for the vertically challenged - but OSHA wouldn't approve of that technique.
They are electrically heated, and most operators turn them on during the line up and wait flow or checklist.
KLB
Well-Known Member
I'm 6ft tall and can reach the main and standby pitot tube covers. But I have very long arms.
The pitot heats comes on in the "runway line-up/before takeoff" checklist before crossing the hold short and instantly becomes piping hot.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
I was thinking maybe it was a function of a WOW switch or something. So that pitot cover was almost certainly melted from what you’re saying. Wild.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
There is a bunch of systems tied into the WOW, but pitot heat isn't one of them. I've heard some crews discussing how they'd heat the probes sooner when heavy snow is falling, but it wasn't something I ever did. Chances are if the snow was that serious, the HOT was going to be very short and more restrictive.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
It’s maybe still possible it wasn’t (though from what our resident type rated folks are saying it probably was melted), depending what kind of probe cover. When I flew the pilatus, they originally came with plastic covers for the AOA probes. After many people melted those by powering up the aircraft after not doing their after landing checklist, they started coming with leather covers that supposedly wouldn’t melt and jam up the AOA vane.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
For the type rated folks-
So it’s evident that these pilots screwed the pooch by dispatching with a no-go fault, likely caused by a damaged pitot tube. My question to you is, is there any way this is likely linked to the sec trim fault, or did they just have really bad luck that day?
So it’s evident that these pilots screwed the pooch by dispatching with a no-go fault, likely caused by a damaged pitot tube. My question to you is, is there any way this is likely linked to the sec trim fault, or did they just have really bad luck that day?
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I work in 135 and love my job, but IMHO you’re right on target with this. It’s one of the reasons I have a 121 app out there-it’s just factual that I’m more likely to deal with an accident or incident over the next 28 years if I stay where I’m at.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
This isn’t the first pitch trim excursion resulting in an injury for the challenger. Uncommanded pitch is a memory item for a reason.
Sadly it seems this event had several holes line up in the Swiss cheese.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Some of the best pilots I’ve ever worked with were on the 91/135 side of things. But also some of the worst pilots I worked with were on that side too.
121 isn’t perfect, but in my experience it does a much better job of capturing the truly terrible pilots that have no business in the air. As far as maintenance goes, there’s no question how much better 121 is and it takes all the pressure off the pilots.
If it’s broken, you write it up and it’s no longer your problem. Zero pressure, even at the regionals.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I could totally see how this could happen to even good pilots who couldn’t separate the perceived pressures from Mr Big and doing a good enough job to not kill someone.
Last minute call outs to the airport, someone telling you “oh the airplane is good to go” when you show up. Then being afraid to stop the operation and admit to Mr Big: “hey this went bad we need fo shut the airplane down and hard reset to make it work.”
Now you kill Mr. Bigs wife trying to make him happy and you could go to jail for it.
The airline vs corporate discussion is also dumb. Corporate is worse only because the holes in the cheese line up more often entirely because people are allowed to put themselves in that position.
When I was at SkyWizzle in training they showed us videos of the guys that took off without fueling and almost crashed. A CRJ almost crashed into a mountain near EUG, they had to limit their altitude because they kept stalling airplanes… it was a disaster. The only real difference is they weren’t trying to hide it from Mr Big.
My current shop is arguably worse. Mostly due to our horrible “checking department.” That has reenforced the bad habits of “doing things fast from memorization” that are leading to things like unnecessary engine shutdowns because of a non existent fuel leak.
The cowboy mentality is out of control. I had to threaten to walk off an aircraft more than once to get de-iced. Now I have learned to shape the discussion of getting an ice check to mention that “if you check it and say it’s good and take responsibility for it, then I’m ok with it.” It’s because I’m tired of arguing with guys who don’t want to get deiced and I only have a short time before I’m the captain asking my FO nicely to “please call iceman for an ice check.” Instead of ranting about wasting the companies money and time and claiming the “ice check” employees have no idea what they are doing.
Guys set off the EGPWS so much in SE AK we can’t fly VFR anymore. Which to me was a relief. Because it was so much extra work to get a VFR flight plan and then hold on for dear life while some guy rocketed out of WRG off runway 28 headed for a mountain and asked for flaps up too early because “my record for WRG to SIT is 7 minutes.”
All the astronauts on the Challenger died a horrible fiery death because of a perceived pressure to make Ronald Regan happy about blasting a teacher into space and the perception their space vehicle was unreliable. So NASA goes out of limits on temperature for launch. Intentionally. Multiple times. At the NASA flight department.
If you don’t have the hubris to admit this could be you that’s when I worry about you. We are all capable of this. Myself included.
Just last week, I had to wait 8 hours at the airport because the inbound crew taxied into a ladder. Contract maintenance was removing the lower winglets. I told the FAs and the captain “If they ask me to extend I should say no I’m too tired.” So when the captain got the call “will you extend”, the captain asks me and I start babbling “well I do hate deadheading and I don’t feel that bad.” One of the FAs looks at me and says: “YOU SAID YOURE TOO TIRED TO BE SAFE.”
That snapped me out of it. “Sorry I’m too tired to extend.”
Sleeping in a hotel was an excellent decision and the next day the captain and I agreed we would have been too tired.
No one is safe from themselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last minute call outs to the airport, someone telling you “oh the airplane is good to go” when you show up. Then being afraid to stop the operation and admit to Mr Big: “hey this went bad we need fo shut the airplane down and hard reset to make it work.”
Now you kill Mr. Bigs wife trying to make him happy and you could go to jail for it.
The airline vs corporate discussion is also dumb. Corporate is worse only because the holes in the cheese line up more often entirely because people are allowed to put themselves in that position.
When I was at SkyWizzle in training they showed us videos of the guys that took off without fueling and almost crashed. A CRJ almost crashed into a mountain near EUG, they had to limit their altitude because they kept stalling airplanes… it was a disaster. The only real difference is they weren’t trying to hide it from Mr Big.
My current shop is arguably worse. Mostly due to our horrible “checking department.” That has reenforced the bad habits of “doing things fast from memorization” that are leading to things like unnecessary engine shutdowns because of a non existent fuel leak.
The cowboy mentality is out of control. I had to threaten to walk off an aircraft more than once to get de-iced. Now I have learned to shape the discussion of getting an ice check to mention that “if you check it and say it’s good and take responsibility for it, then I’m ok with it.” It’s because I’m tired of arguing with guys who don’t want to get deiced and I only have a short time before I’m the captain asking my FO nicely to “please call iceman for an ice check.” Instead of ranting about wasting the companies money and time and claiming the “ice check” employees have no idea what they are doing.
Guys set off the EGPWS so much in SE AK we can’t fly VFR anymore. Which to me was a relief. Because it was so much extra work to get a VFR flight plan and then hold on for dear life while some guy rocketed out of WRG off runway 28 headed for a mountain and asked for flaps up too early because “my record for WRG to SIT is 7 minutes.”
All the astronauts on the Challenger died a horrible fiery death because of a perceived pressure to make Ronald Regan happy about blasting a teacher into space and the perception their space vehicle was unreliable. So NASA goes out of limits on temperature for launch. Intentionally. Multiple times. At the NASA flight department.
If you don’t have the hubris to admit this could be you that’s when I worry about you. We are all capable of this. Myself included.
Just last week, I had to wait 8 hours at the airport because the inbound crew taxied into a ladder. Contract maintenance was removing the lower winglets. I told the FAs and the captain “If they ask me to extend I should say no I’m too tired.” So when the captain got the call “will you extend”, the captain asks me and I start babbling “well I do hate deadheading and I don’t feel that bad.” One of the FAs looks at me and says: “YOU SAID YOURE TOO TIRED TO BE SAFE.”
That snapped me out of it. “Sorry I’m too tired to extend.”
Sleeping in a hotel was an excellent decision and the next day the captain and I agreed we would have been too tired.
No one is safe from themselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
KLB
Well-Known Member
So along with your Prime Stab and secondary stab trim, there is also configuration trim and mach trim which are done without pilot input. They are based on speed and configuration. I am not sure if a clogged pitot tube giving an erroneous reading could effect how mach trim works in cruise....if that makes sense.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
So probably not related. When you say uncommanded pitch is a memory item, is it taught for a scenario like this where the AP is engaged? I’m still stuck on them correlating the CAS messages to the wrong trim system. There are some aircraft and QRHs that are poorly written out there (some of the Bombardier ones for the LR45 are confusing, though I don’t think any are misleading) but this one seems fairly straightforward, even more so if you have an understanding of how autopilot trim works in the aircraft.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Really 90% of the issue came from an improper preflight. There wasn't really an pressure applied there.