BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I'm 100% sure you'll never have to worry about the opportunity to do so. Why be so adamant about expressing your opinion about it?
Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released
- Thread starter schloopy
- Start date
I'm 100% sure you'll never have to worry about the opportunity to do so. Why be so adamant about expressing your opinion about it?
Nope. A small-ish number of corporate operations are even safer than 121.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
This still doesn't make sense to me. There are corporate flight departments out there that are loads safer than even the top end 121 carriers. Places that send all their pilots to real upset recovery training (not the stupid stuff we do in the sim every few years), and human factors courses. There are places that have SMS in place, and have for way longer than any of the 121 carriers. There are corporate operators that outfit their aircraft with safety equipment (EVS etc) that we can only dream about having. There are corporate pilots who routinely outfly and outthink the "best" of the guys you'd find on your seniority list.
There are also corporate flight departments that have terrible pilots, cut corners, and don't spend money on safety.
I think the most generalized statement you can make is that 121 has a lower accident rate per flight hour than things that aren't part 121.
But it kind of seems like you aren't trying to make generalized statements, but rather are just trolling.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Still a Corpie.
And like the other guy said above, Corpies exist to get that individual(s) from A to B. Me, while we are going to airport ABC, I give exactly zero poops if I can’t make it there for some reason. I’ll divert, call it a day. In literally any airport in America that takes a 73. And we’ll get hotels. And not care. And unlike a Corpie, I’ll even call to be released from my Deadhead. Let someone else fix this.
Corpie world? They take numbers. You leave any of em in a bad situation, they gonna remember you long time. I’ve heard many horror stories from ex-Corpies I fly with.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Not trolling. You are referring to the Unicorns of the Corpie world. Sure they exist, but they are just that: unicorns.
And NetJets? I remember their job ad years ago. It basically said, “Our owners can bring their pets. Our owners can smoke cigarettes. You better be okay with that.”
Pets I like, but smoking? Um, no thanks.
"Sure they exist" means that "All corpies are not AS safe..." is a false statement.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
As a fellow boomer, I excuse your Corpie department and rank you and yours better than 121.
You’re the GRR guy right?
I worked for a really good company, definitely among the safest charter operators in the country, but I still wouldn't put it at the same level as the "unicorns". We were (still are, I presume) working towards that goal.As a fellow boomer, I excuse your Corpie department and rank you and yours better than 121.
You’re the GRR guy right?
During my tenure there as Director of Operations I was on the Board of Directors of the Air Charter Safety Foundation and the Michigan Business Aircraft Association/Federation. I've got some insight and perspective on the topic.
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I think you missed the main point. Airlines pay for the level of safety that’s mandated and any additional spending is in the interests of profit (fun fact, SMS is quite useful to quantify the costs of an accident amongst many other things). When the guy who runs the company is riding in back there’s a bit more of a personal interest in safety. There are some operators where the pressure to go comes from the top, but a good corporate operator will have a FOM with the accountable executive stating safety policy. Bluntly, no matter the operation pilots put pressure on themselves. I definitely have in the past. That’s where experience comes in, as well as having a safety culture where pilots feel like they can do the right thing and have backup from management. “Let someone else fix this” is absolutely an attitude that won’t get you far in a small flight department. But, “this is what’s going on and this is what I’m doing about it” is perfectly fine. I’ve sat eating overpriced BBQ on the expense account in Aspen watching planes (including airliners) depart with “instantaneous winds” that don’t match the outstretched windsock. All it took was explaining to pax that we weren’t willing to play games to depart “legally” and that we’d wait until conditions changed. And guess what? They thanked me.Still a Corpie.
And like the other guy said above, Corpies exist to get that individual(s) from A to B. Me, while we are going to airport ABC, I give exactly zero poops if I can’t make it there for some reason. I’ll divert, call it a day. In literally any airport in America that takes a 73. And we’ll get hotels. And not care. And unlike a Corpie, I’ll even call to be released from my Deadhead. Let someone else fix this.
Corpie world? They take numbers. You leave any of em in a bad situation, they gonna remember you long time. I’ve heard many horror stories from ex-Corpies I fly with.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Nice. You also didn't wind up like a few airplanes who played the winds game and lost since I've left the 91/135 side.
That's it, that's it. CC will absolutely refuse to make sweet sweet love to Arianna Grande as well.
As if that was ever an option for him. Or chartering a jet. LOL
///AMG
Well-Known Member
The part of CSFF criteria that is difficult to tell (IMHO) is exactly what you describe doing. Finding a "vantage point" inside even an empty airplane is hard as hell, as far as I have seen (open to suggestions from you all who have done it many more times than me). The field of regard is small, and the lighting often is really not helpful. A row or two behind the trailing edge is about the best I can do, from where I can look across the wing and sort of judge from an oblique angle, but if tops of the wings are wet (from previous precip), I'm 50/50 if I trust what I am seeing. I've done the aft cargo loader, as well as the jet bridge, and neither are very good. Have also used the ladder, which is I guess the most effective. Point being, determining if there is anything outside the boxes on the topside is somewhat of a judgement call in certain conditions until you conduct an actual ice check. I agree with you though, I haven't run into a single CA yet that wanted to die on that hill. Most of those cases I'm speaking of, I come back in and say "I really can't tell for sure" which always seems to be good enough for them. We waited in STL for over an hour, for a deice crew to spray us, when every tom dick and harry at OAL was pushing back and going (because both iceman and our sta ops were apparently not at work yet). It was probably the right thing to do......I mean who knows what the situation for those other jets was. Ours had been overnight at around freezing with rain and sleet, which had subsided by my walk around. Any aircraft that landed in the last few hours wouldn't have needed the same treatment. /long post about things which I don't know
also.....I believe it is fuel temp of greater than -16 right?
Also I said "jet" like 5 times just there.....
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dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
I’ve cancelled, diverted, or delayed numerous flights in my corporate career. I’ve had grumblings from both passengers and owners but I’ve NEVER had push-back or negative repercussion! The ONLY negative repercussions for these I’ve experience has been while working for an air ambulance company.
In my corporate flying, the briefing to my passengers includes the following;
“…..I’m the most selfish pilot you’ll want to meet. I won’t do anything that will risk my life so please know that I’ll keep me and you safe….”
13 years, 80 different countries/territories, 19 North Atlantic crossings, 95% of this single-pilot; and thankful every day that God watches over!
This being stated, I can sleep in the back of any 121 operator’s plane with ease knowing I’m in good hands; can’t do that sitting next to my wife when she’s driving.
In my corporate flying, the briefing to my passengers includes the following;
“…..I’m the most selfish pilot you’ll want to meet. I won’t do anything that will risk my life so please know that I’ll keep me and you safe….”
13 years, 80 different countries/territories, 19 North Atlantic crossings, 95% of this single-pilot; and thankful every day that God watches over!
This being stated, I can sleep in the back of any 121 operator’s plane with ease knowing I’m in good hands; can’t do that sitting next to my wife when she’s driving.
KLB
Well-Known Member
The part of CSFF criteria that is difficult to tell (IMHO) is exactly what you describe doing. Finding a "vantage point" inside even an empty airplane is hard as hell, as far as I have seen (open to suggestions from you all who have done it many more times than me). The field of regard is small, and the lighting often is really not helpful. A row or two behind the trailing edge is about the best I can do, from where I can look across the wing and sort of judge from an oblique angle, but if tops of the wings are wet (from previous precip), I'm 50/50 if I trust what I am seeing. I've done the aft cargo loader, as well as the jet bridge, and neither are very good. Have also used the ladder, which is I guess the most effective. Point being, determining if there is anything outside the boxes on the topside is somewhat of a judgement call in certain conditions until you conduct an actual ice check. I agree with you though, I haven't run into a single CA yet that wanted to die on that hill. Most of those cases I'm speaking of, I come back in and say "I really can't tell for sure" which always seems to be good enough for them. We waited in STL for over an hour, for a deice crew to spray us, when every tom dick and harry at OAL was pushing back and going (because both iceman and our sta ops were apparently not at work yet). It was probably the right thing to do......I mean who knows what the situation for those other jets was. Ours had been overnight at around freezing with rain and sleet, which had subsided by my walk around. Any aircraft that landed in the last few hours wouldn't have needed the same treatment. /long post about things which I don't know
also.....I believe it is fuel temp of greater than -16 right?
You want to know something interesting in most 135/91 GOM/FOM's. Airliner's deice crews are supposedly trained to on spraying and checking to make sure the deivlce event was properly completed.
Most 135/91 GOM/FOM's say that a company representative (this means pilot) must go out and tactile check the aircraft after a deice event. So even if we use the same crews as the 121 carrier. We have to vlsually go out and ensure that the aircraft was effectively deiced.
That is one thing about corporate aviation. The burden always falls on the flight crews. We have to visually ensure that things like the baggage doors and fuel doors are properly latched prior to departure while 121 crews are usually done preflighting before the fueling is complete and the bags/cargo is loaded.
Add on top that...things like flight planning, hotels, rental cars, client transportation, catering... and if you are a head of a flight department/lead pilot, you have expense report approvals, budgeting, mx event planning, flight crew coordination, training event scheduling. I literally do far more administrative stuff than I actually fly.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
The part of CSFF criteria that is difficult to tell (IMHO) is exactly what you describe doing. Finding a "vantage point" inside even an empty airplane is hard as hell, as far as I have seen (open to suggestions from you all who have done it many more times than me). The field of regard is small, and the lighting often is really not helpful. A row or two behind the trailing edge is about the best I can do, from where I can look across the wing and sort of judge from an oblique angle, but if tops of the wings are wet (from previous precip), I'm 50/50 if I trust what I am seeing. I've done the aft cargo loader, as well as the jet bridge, and neither are very good. Have also used the ladder, which is I guess the most effective. Point being, determining if there is anything outside the boxes on the topside is somewhat of a judgement call in certain conditions until you conduct an actual ice check. I agree with you though, I haven't run into a single CA yet that wanted to die on that hill. Most of those cases I'm speaking of, I come back in and say "I really can't tell for sure" which always seems to be good enough for them. We waited in STL for over an hour, for a deice crew to spray us, when every tom dick and harry at OAL was pushing back and going (because both iceman and our sta ops were apparently not at work yet). It was probably the right thing to do......I mean who knows what the situation for those other jets was. Ours had been overnight at around freezing with rain and sleet, which had subsided by my walk around. Any aircraft that landed in the last few hours wouldn't have needed the same treatment. /long post about things which I don't know
also.....I believe it is fuel temp of greater than -16 right?
The judgement call and I can’t tell thing just leads me to have the ice check people come and check. Because it’s now on them to make that judgment call. I am now absolved from responsibility which for me is ideal. That’s why I don’t understand captains that “don’t trust” the ice people. The people that own the airplanes do soooooooo….
Also if your FO and a mechanic independently do tell you you need to get sprayed off you probably should.
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nocturnalaviator
AI Jedi
This should be a call to all TCE’s and check airman. The buck stops with YOU. If it’s not to ATP ACS stands, company stands, consistently exceeding tolerances, not using prompt corrective action, no display of sound aero judgement, no risk management, if the oral exam knowledge is weak (less than 70% of questions asked are incorrect unsure) then there needs to be UNSAT on the ride. No exceptions. Personal/work schedules should not conflict or be a deciding factor for issuing a sat, when deep down it should have been an unsat. Integrity. Hold ‘em accountable! Hold the line!
Instructors… start to incorporate scenario based training into the plan of action. Special emphasis should be on avionics malfs, manual flight control management, and flight control malfs. The more complex the FCS, all the more reason to fail those systems in training. See how they perform, facilitate those go/no-go discussions and external pressures to make those calls. Get em thinkin!
The more I’m reading this the more I can’t help but think what indirect part did the 142 world play in this. Let’s tighten it up and help these folks with “seeing the light”.
Instructors… start to incorporate scenario based training into the plan of action. Special emphasis should be on avionics malfs, manual flight control management, and flight control malfs. The more complex the FCS, all the more reason to fail those systems in training. See how they perform, facilitate those go/no-go discussions and external pressures to make those calls. Get em thinkin!
The more I’m reading this the more I can’t help but think what indirect part did the 142 world play in this. Let’s tighten it up and help these folks with “seeing the light”.
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KLB
Well-Known Member
I'll say that my initial training was pretty soft ball'ish on the airframe. Things tended to get a lot more interesting during my recurrents. I actually had a scenario similar to this in the sim, accept mine scenerio was a trim runaway at low altitude and 200kts. It was quite manageable. But of course, I've been flying the plane since 2015 and follow the checklist.
The training centers are under pressure to pass people because of how customer service oriented the training business in corporate aviation. They is little balance between quality training that handing out 100 lashings. The Montreal training center had an instructor infamous for handing out failures like tic tacs. He hated his job and wanted everyone to feel his rapture. So pilots and companies stopped using Montreal as an option training. The other training centers would be booked solid on the airframe while Montreal would be empty because of this. The guy eventually got canned. But Montreal is still stuck with the reputation.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Major air disasters in last 10 years: CHECK worst and best years in aviation safety
While the Nepal Plane Crash is the first major aviation disaster of 2023, there have been many fatal crashes in the history of the aviation.
zeenews.india.com
Also, nobody calls it Corpie lol.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I also really think there’s missed wordplay opportunity here if you do want to • on corporate guys. Corporate -> Corp -> Corpse? Something like that.
I don’t know but not only is CC just out to lunch on things (per usual) but he’s really missing some excellent puns and that really bothers me.
“Bruh, you went with Corpie? Not even Corpsie or Corpserate Pilots, c’mon, man!”