CFI Renewal: Goodbye American Flyers!

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
This year:

(a) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate that has not expired may renew that flight instructor certificate by—
(1) Passing a practical test for—
(ii) An additional flight instructor rating; or

And then every two years after:

(2) Submitting a completed and signed application with the FAA and satisfactorily completing one of the following renewal requirements—
(iv) A record showing that, within the preceding 12 months from the month of application, the flight instructor passed an official U.S. Armed Forces military instructor pilot proficiency check.

I am not going to miss that weekend of hell every two years.
 

Inverted

Give your balls a tug Jonsey..
As a company check airman or training captain, you get to do even less than that, so there!
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Some FSDOs will give a renewal to even just regular old Captains since they are mentoring.
An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate, without a cfi... Technically, anytime you fly as a captain with a non ATP rated pilot you could claim it.

I you are a check airman, they don't even look at your stuff.
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
Did you read those?
Yes. You wrote:
"An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate, without a cfi... Technically, anytime you fly as a captain with a non ATP rated pilot you could claim it."
My emphasis.

From the Creech Letter:

"Answer 1. Section 61.167(b) authorizes an ATP, who does not hold a flight instructor certificate, to give flight instruction only if the ATP and pilot are engaged in air transportation service. The authorization is limited in scope."

"While section 61.167(b)(2) authorizes an ATP to give instruction when the ATP does not hold a CFI, the ATP would have to comply with both §61.167(b)(2) and §61.3(d)(3)(ii). According to §61.3(d)(3)(ii), the instruction must be "... conducted in accordance with an
approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135 .... "

I included the two cases because, though the decisions were in favor of the pilots, there is quite a bit of discussion on what an ATP can and can not do.
FAA v. Holland

"Since we are unable to discern from this record whether Mandan's operations are encompassed by the term "air transportation
service,"8 and since the Administrator is unable to direct us to a definition of that specific term, we cannot agree with the Administrator that respondent knew or should have known as much."

FAA v. Richards:

"9 We question the Administrator's assertion that this regulation clearly applies only to ATP pilots "in operations for compensation or hire." The regulation states that an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots "in air transportation service," but that term is not defined. The term "Air transportation" is defined in FAR § 1.1 as "interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation or the transportation of mail by aircraft." And, as the Administrator notes, "Interstate air transportation" is defined in FAR § 1.1 as "the carriage by aircraft of persons or property as a common carrier for compensation or hire, or the carriage of mail be aircraft in commerce." But see the definition of "Interstate air commerce" in FAR § 1.1, "the carriage by aircraft of persons or property for compensation or hire, or the carriage of mail by aircraft, or the operation or navigation of aircraft in the conduct or furtherance of a business or vocation...." (emphasis added)."

Also, note the date on the Creech letter verses the dates of the cases. The Creech letter is dated 2010, the cases were decided in January 2000. So the Creech letter of interpretation supersedes the court decisions.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Yes. You wrote:
"An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate, without a cfi... Technically, anytime you fly as a captain with a non ATP rated pilot you could claim it."
My emphasis.

From the Creech Letter:

"Answer 1. Section 61.167(b) authorizes an ATP, who does not hold a flight instructor certificate, to give flight instruction only if the ATP and pilot are engaged in air transportation service. The authorization is limited in scope."

"While section 61.167(b)(2) authorizes an ATP to give instruction when the ATP does not hold a CFI, the ATP would have to comply with both §61.167(b)(2) and §61.3(d)(3)(ii). According to §61.3(d)(3)(ii), the instruction must be "... conducted in accordance with an
approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135 .... "

I included the two cases because, though the decisions were in favor of the pilots, there is quite a bit of discussion on what an ATP can and can not do.
FAA v. Holland

"Since we are unable to discern from this record whether Mandan's operations are encompassed by the term "air transportation
service,"8 and since the Administrator is unable to direct us to a definition of that specific term, we cannot agree with the Administrator that respondent knew or should have known as much."

FAA v. Richards:

"9 We question the Administrator's assertion that this regulation clearly applies only to ATP pilots "in operations for compensation or hire." The regulation states that an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots "in air transportation service," but that term is not defined. The term "Air transportation" is defined in FAR § 1.1 as "interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation or the transportation of mail by aircraft." And, as the Administrator notes, "Interstate air transportation" is defined in FAR § 1.1 as "the carriage by aircraft of persons or property as a common carrier for compensation or hire, or the carriage of mail be aircraft in commerce." But see the definition of "Interstate air commerce" in FAR § 1.1, "the carriage by aircraft of persons or property for compensation or hire, or the carriage of mail by aircraft, or the operation or navigation of aircraft in the conduct or furtherance of a business or vocation...." (emphasis added)."

Also, note the date on the Creech letter verses the dates of the cases. The Creech letter is dated 2010, the cases were decided in January 2000. So the Creech letter of interpretation supersedes the court decisions.
Did you notice my quoted section was referring to a 121 captain (Rob)? One with an FOM duties section that includes verbiage about monitoring, mentoring and teaching The first officer? -( an is part of the upgrade training process)

In Robs case, which was the only point of my post, our POI (when I used to work there) would renew any cfi at recurrent /pc or in a meeting because the requirements had been met...

The whole check airman part at the end kinda goes with that... I can't say I've ever seen a part 91 check airman ( not counting 91 fractionals.
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
Did you notice my quoted section was referring to a 121 captain (Rob)? One with an FOM duties section that includes verbiage about monitoring, mentoring and teaching The first officer? -( an is part of the upgrade training process)

In Robs case, which was the only point of my post, our POI (when I used to work there) would renew any cfi at recurrent /pc or in a meeting because the requirements had been met...

The whole check airman part at the end kinda goes with that... I can't say I've ever seen a part 91 check airman ( not counting 91 fractionals.
Yes. But I also read your post and, without clarification I can be construed to mean exactly what you wrote. This discussion (ATPs can always act as a CFI), has come up on this website and others in the past.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Yes. But I also read your post and, without clarification I can be construed to mean exactly what you wrote. This discussion (ATPs can always act as a CFI), has come up on this website and others in the past.
I never said anything about an ATP acting as a CFI, so yes I meant exactly for what I wrote. As an ATP captain, rob can satisfy the requirements for his CFI renewal every leg he flies with a non ATP rated first officer.
"presenting an authorized Flight Standards Inspector a record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots"
"
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
I never said anything about an ATP acting as a CFI, so yes I meant exactly for what I wrote. As an ATP captain, rob can satisfy the requirements for his CFI renewal every leg he flies with a non ATP rated first officer.
"presenting an authorized Flight Standards Inspector a record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots"
"
Yes you did. "An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate without a CFI."
Again, leaving a sentence like that hanging wihout clarification can get someone burned.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Yes you did. "An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate without a CFI."
Again, leaving a sentence like that hanging wihout clarification can get someone burned.
An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate without a CFI. There is absolutely nothing incorrect about that statement. It's like correcting somebody who says the speed limit is 65, because they didn't say conditions permitting.

I'm not going to pull out and cite every regulation for your consideration any time I say something on the Internet. If you chose to instruct using the privileges provided by an ATP certificate, then it is upon you to know the rules. If you are so worried about it, then simply add a note. My original statement for its intent is 100% correct.

The FSDO may renew an airline transport pilot (121captains CFI) based upon the duties of the captain ( which do not require a CFI) the captain may use this flight time to present his claim that he meets the requirements of that section of 61.197 (or whatever reg it is its been a long time)

Either way, what/ who you can or can not instruct with an ATP had absolutely no bearing on renewing your CFI. The stated position for an airline captain to renew their CFI with the fsdo is because you are routinely mentoring and monitoring upgrade candidates, as required by company SOPs, which is part of the training and checking program, an can only be done by a person holding an ATP. I did not say you could act as a CFI, I did not say anything about training records, sign offs, or testing requirements. Beyond that, training centers across the country use non CFI instructors to teach Pt. 91, and using an ATP to train students in this manner is not limited to 121 or 135 training programs.

I myself am a perfect example. I never got my MEI, but have likely given close to 2k hours of instruction in multi engined airplanes. I could not have done that without my ATP. As an ATP I gave instruction to an ATP candidate. I did not act as a CFI. A CFI and Instructor pilot are two very different things, and an ATP cannot act a a CFI, so as again, I never said an ATP can act as a CFI.
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
An ATP can give instruction to an ATP candidate without a CFI. There is absolutely nothing incorrect about that statement. It's like correcting somebody who says the speed limit is 65, because they didn't say conditions permitting.

I'm not going to pull out and cite every regulation for your consideration any time I say something on the Internet. If you chose to instruct using the privileges provided by an ATP certificate, then it is upon you to know the rules. If you are so worried about it, then simply add a note. My original statement for its intent is 100% correct.

The FSDO may renew an airline transport pilot (121captains CFI) based upon the duties of the captain ( which do not require a CFI) the captain may use this flight time to present his claim that he meets the requirements of that section of 61.197 (or whatever reg it is its been a long time)

Either way, what/ who you can or can not instruct with an ATP had absolutely no bearing on renewing your CFI. The stated position for an airline captain to renew their CFI with the fsdo is because you are routinely mentoring and monitoring upgrade candidates, as required by company SOPs, which is part of the training and checking program, an can only be done by a person holding an ATP. I did not say you could act as a CFI, I did not say anything about training records, sign offs, or testing requirements. Beyond that, training centers across the country use non CFI instructors to teach Pt. 91, and using an ATP to train students in this manner is not limited to 121 or 135 training programs.

I myself am a perfect example. I never got my MEI, but have likely given close to 2k hours of instruction in multi engined airplanes. I could not have done that without my ATP. As an ATP I gave instruction to an ATP candidate. I did not act as a CFI. A CFI and Instructor pilot are two very different things, and an ATP cannot act a a CFI, so as again, I never said an ATP can act as a CFI.
If you were giving instruction outside of 135/121 then according to the FAA Chief Counsel you are in violation of the FARs. The Creech letter is very specific about ATPs not being able to instruct outside the scope of part 135 and 121. If this is the case (you were using your ATP to teach under part 91), I advise you to delete your previous post and ask the moderator to delete my quote as you do not want such things on the internet. In addition anyone you have taught using your ATP under 91 can be subject to a 709 ride.
"Question 1. What is the intent of the 61. 167(b)?
Answer 1. Section 61.167(b) authorizes an ATP, who does not hold a flight instructor certificate, to give flight instruction only if the ATP and pilot are engaged in air transportation service. The authorization is limited in scope.
Question 2. Maya pilot who holds an ATP certificate and a BE-300 'type rating give dual instruction in a BE-300 aircraft to a commercial multiengine pilot with an instrument rating in "air transport service," if the ATP does not have a CFI and the flight is to be conducted under part 91 operating rules? If so, could this time count towards the 1500 hour total time requirement for the commercial pilot to obtain an ATP certificate?
Answer 2. We spoke to you by phone and confirmed that the flight described in your question is not part of an FAA approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135. Since the flight is not part of an FAA air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135, that fact is' dispositive of whether the ATP, who does not have a CFI, may give flight instruction,
While section 61.167(b)(2) authorizes an ATP to give instruction when the ATP does not hold a CFI, the ATP would have to comply with both §61.167(b)(2) and §61.3(d)(3)(ii). According to §61.3(d)(3)(ii), the instruction must be "... conducted in accordance with an approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135 .... " In your questions, the ATP is not a CFI and the flight is not part of an FAA approved air carrier training program approved under part 121 or part 135. As a result, the ATP may not instruct the commercial pilot. Since the ATP is not authorized to provide dual instruction, the flight time may not be counted as instructional time."
 
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