Career thoughts

Would you

  • Stay in the charter, grow and upgrade there

    Votes: 5 10.2%
  • Go be a yellow bus driver, better recession survivability and it's a proper size plane

    Votes: 19 38.8%
  • Get on with a W/O with a flow

    Votes: 20 40.8%
  • CRJ200 make the real pilots. So does the permanently sucky weather and 0.7 long taxi in ORD

    Votes: 5 10.2%

  • Total voters
    49
As much as I respect @wheelsup comments most of the time, you're 36 dude. No one knows what the next ten years has in store for the majors. You have almost 30 years before retirement, I think your chances of being a WB CA are better than that..
If you went to an eagle carrier today, flow times are about 5 years I hear, so you’d be hitting mainline around 41 years old. Definitely enough time to work up to 767 or whatever has taken its place by then. Of course drones and age rules could change all these projections.
 
If you went to an eagle carrier today, flow times are about 5 years I hear, so you’d be hitting mainline around 41 years old. Definitely enough time to work up to 767 or whatever has taken its place by then. Of course drones and age rules could change all these projections.

I think it's a bit more than that as of today, but it is an interesting time for sure and everything can change
 
I am very happily employed at a charter shop, not looking to drop everything and jump the boat, this is more of a "what would you do" kind of a discussion since I'm a INTJ and constantly shuffle possibilities in my head, and discussions like this might surface something I didn't think about.
So, here's the starting data
36 1/2 yo, 1330tt. Of that 330ish jet SIC. Need to get a degree since my foreign college doesn't count for shizzle.
Strong spiritual attachment to Florida where I've lived for a while, presently work and overall enjoy the weather and such. Wife likes FL, but not quite as much.
Family in Chicago, where wife has a great career at UAL HQ, she enjoys it, that sort of thing tends to pay better than the FO flying does. I very much dislike living up there (did it for 12 years, yuck), wife disliked it too, but to a lesser extent.

For the purposes of this discussion let's assume the end goal as retiring a widebody CA in 28 1/2 years.

Present shop - pays great (as compared to other FO jobs of similar experience level. Or even to Flex, same equipment. Might be a hair under NJ), great team, with the guy ahead of me going into upgrade next week I'll be the most senior FO in the company, not that it directly affects anything at this time. No official word on it yet, but I doubt it I'll see an upgrade before 2500 or so hours. Street CA ad was for 3k. As of right now, that's all light jet. There's one midsize fbw minibus on property, so right seat in that is a very maybe maybe. I'd guesstimate 500-600 hours of flight time per year. Maybe a bit less when the dust settles and we're fully staffed.

Two or three options outside of the current job that I was wondering about

Spirit - granted, hiring at 2k hrs might not be there a year from now (best case of me getting there with 1000 jet sic) if the TA is reached, but on the bright side the paycheck matches what the airplane says on it and I believe it might be a better place to be stuck in should the economy go tango uniform. FLL and ORD bases help too. Training would be a b***h with no prior 121, but I'm a tough cookie. Upgrade of 6+ years for current hire with no additional orders sucks though. All the chances to be hunting for a legacy job when a bunch of regional guys with tpic will be doing the same.

Envoy - again, MIA and ORD bases help, so does the flow. Paycut would be even more painful though over the first few years. Things are peachy now, but I've been around long enough to remember 2008 and after.

Air Whiskey. Woohoo 19yo CRJ200 and UAL CPP. Woohoo Chicago. But as a current airman trainee I can more or less just waltz in there. Great company, but not sure what the future holds for them. Thought of being stuck there for 8 years does not appeal much.

So, a poll. Opinions are valued too
Might be useful further down the road for other guy's thinking about mainline via corporate and or ulcc etc.

If you actually have the opportunity to go to Spirit, I'd definitely go there. But I'm not sure how easy it will be to get a call from them.

I would actually recommend going to Envoy. You can still apply to Spirit or any other major/LCC from Envoy, and the flow to American might come in handy. Especially since most of the majors require college degrees but as far as I know you don't need one to be eligible for the flow.

I believe those who are flowing to AA from Envoy right now have been there for 8-10 years, but the flow time could always decrease (or increase) and going to mainline after 10 years at the regionals is a lot better than never making it to the majors. And there is enough competition for jobs at the majors that plenty of pilots will never make it there. Frankly, I wish I had gone to one of the AA wholly owned regionals as soon as I met the ATP minimums, as I'd be in a much better position than I am now and will probably never make it to mainline with all the black marks on my record.

On the other hand, I can see not wanting to leave your current job if it would be a pay cut. But then if your goal is legacy wide body captain Envoy or one of the other AA wholly owned regionals is probably your best chance of getting there, especially without an accredited college degree. And even if you get to American too late to ever hold widebody captain you will still be in a much better position than you would be outside of the legacies.

One thing about the Air Wisconsin to United CPP- I believe you need an accredited college degree for it, I know that is the case with the CPP we have at CommutAir. So don't plan on that unless you intend to get another degree.

Best of luck with your career decision.
 
If you actually have the opportunity to go to Spirit, I'd definitely go there. But I'm not sure how easy it will be to get a call from them.

I would actually recommend going to Envoy. You can still apply to Spirit or any other major/LCC from Envoy, and the flow to American might come in handy. Especially since most of the majors require college degrees but as far as I know you don't need one to be eligible for the flow.

I believe those who are flowing to AA from Envoy right now have been there for 8-10 years, but the flow time could always decrease (or increase) and going to mainline after 10 years at the regionals is a lot better than never making it to the majors. And there is enough competition for jobs at the majors that plenty of pilots will never make it there. Frankly, I wish I had gone to one of the AA wholly owned regionals as soon as I met the ATP minimums, as I'd be in a much better position than I am now and will probably never make it to mainline with all the black marks on my record.

On the other hand, I can see not wanting to leave your current job if it would be a pay cut. But then if your goal is legacy wide body captain Envoy or one of the other AA wholly owned regionals is probably your best chance of getting there, especially without an accredited college degree. And even if you get to American too late to ever hold widebody captain you will still be in a much better position than you would be outside of the legacies.

One thing about the Air Wisconsin to United CPP- I believe you need an accredited college degree for it, I know that is the case with the CPP we have at CommutAir. So don't plan on that unless you intend to get another degree.

Best of luck with your career decision.

Thank you and everyone else who chimes in on this!

I do not think I have a shot at Spirit just yet. A year from now maybe, if the climate there holds for that long (which is not something that I wish for the current pilot group).

I do intend to get a checkmarkable degree, flow or not, but that will take three years or so.

Moving anywhere right now would be a noticeable paycut, but there's also an understanding of the actual income comparison including the opportunity cost at the far end of my career, not just concentrating on losing 30k a year now. It really is a wash, wife would lose about 30k a year if she moves from UA to NK, and I would lose about that if I move from FL charter to ORD regional. Some things gotta give, just need to figure out which.

It'd be nice if things were simpler, but at the end of the day my 11th solo anniversary was about a week ago and if someone told me back then that I'll be flying a jet I would probably just laugh.
 
As much as I respect @wheelsup comments most of the time, you're 36 dude. No one knows what the next ten years has in store for the majors. You have almost 30 years before retirement, I think your chances of being a WB CA are better than that..

He's right, your chances of being a wide body captain before retirement are slim.

And it's not a time game, it's a numbers game. With the number of people already hired, you'll never get to the top of the list unless you're 23 right now.

I'm 35, and I'll retire as an Airbus captain.
 
He's right, your chances of being a wide body captain before retirement are slim.

And it's not a time game, it's a numbers game. With the number of people already hired, you'll never get to the top of the list unless you're 23 right now.

I'm 35, and I'll retire as an Airbus captain.

And that's fine too, there's nothing wrong with narrowbody CA either. If things don't go all the way as desired, I'll be content as a LCC CA too. But might as well set high goals and see what happens.
 
Once you reach 1500TT and apply to these places you'll get a clearer picture of things. If a legacy is your goal then Envoy is your best choice.

A TA at Spirit still looks like a ways away. If we get one in 6 months I'll be surprised. Even with the lack of pay (especially on first year right now) it has been the best job I've ever had with great Quality of life. And though no announcement had been made for more orders yet, it will happen as the goal is to keep growing the airline to around 300 planes, currently 106 on property, current orders to 161 by the end of 2021(disclaimer, growth beyond 161 planes is not confirmed, but will most likely happen)

I was able to bypass the regionals from 91/135 to Spirit. Looking back I wish I had gone the regional route years ago, I feel I may be further ahead today if I had pursued it more years ago. However I don't regret my 91/135 background as I have flown to a lot of really unique places that I would have never seen otherwise.
 
Once you reach 1500TT and apply to these places you'll get a clearer picture of things. If a legacy is your goal then Envoy is your best choice.

A TA at Spirit still looks like a ways away. If we get one in 6 months I'll be surprised. Even with the lack of pay (especially on first year right now) it has been the best job I've ever had with great Quality of life. And though no announcement had been made for more orders yet, it will happen as the goal is to keep growing the airline to around 300 planes, currently 106 on property, current orders to 161 by the end of 2021(disclaimer, growth beyond 161 planes is not confirmed, but will most likely happen)

I was able to bypass the regionals from 91/135 to Spirit. Looking back I wish I had gone the regional route years ago, I feel I may be further ahead today if I had pursued it more years ago. However I don't regret my 91/135 background as I have flown to a lot of really unique places that I would have never seen otherwise.
I kick myself for not getting it in gear earlier and enjoying my 120-150 hr/yr 91 jobs for the past three years. It was some great flying on one hand, on the other - cfiing hard and signing up for a regional a little while back would help me be further along in the game.
I do enjoy my 135, but I did like the last month 70 hrs of flight time better than this month 40 hours. I'm salaried, so technically same great pay for less work, but with a career progression in mind that's not a priority.
I would really love to be in a position to go fly for Spirit right now and will be sure to try and make that happen. Any secret passwords are greatly appreciated :)
 
Once you reach 1500TT and apply to these places you'll get a clearer picture of things. If a legacy is your goal then Envoy is your best choice.

A TA at Spirit still looks like a ways away. If we get one in 6 months I'll be surprised. Even with the lack of pay (especially on first year right now) it has been the best job I've ever had with great Quality of life. And though no announcement had been made for more orders yet, it will happen as the goal is to keep growing the airline to around 300 planes, currently 106 on property, current orders to 161 by the end of 2021(disclaimer, growth beyond 161 planes is not confirmed, but will most likely happen)

I was able to bypass the regionals from 91/135 to Spirit. Looking back I wish I had gone the regional route years ago, I feel I may be further ahead today if I had pursued it more years ago. However I don't regret my 91/135 background as I have flown to a lot of really unique places that I would have never seen otherwise.

If you don’t mind sharing, coming from 135/91, what was your tt when you were hired by Spirit? Did you have tpic?
 
Very few people bypass the regionals. Many have tried, almost all have failed. Those who don't fail end up taking longer to reach their goal than those who just went to a regional to start with.

I'm one of these people, and going to Ameriflight before ExpressJet resulted in me being furloughed for 2.5 years, and spending a total of 10 years at the regionals.

If you want to work for a mainline carrier, go to a regional.
Yep. Did the 135 thing for a few years and now at a regional. If airlines are anyone's ultimate goal (wasn't mine initially, but I had a change of heart)not biting the bullet asap and doing the regional thing could hurt them in the long run.
 
If the end goal is widebody captain in 28.5 years...why not look at Atlas or Kalitta? They only fly wide bodies and you’ll upgrade in 5 years. Then you can say you’ve done it and do whatever you want. Plus no commuting.
 
He's right, your chances of being a wide body captain before retirement are slim.

And it's not a time game, it's a numbers game. With the number of people already hired, you'll never get to the top of the list unless you're 23 right now.

I'm 35, and I'll retire as an Airbus captain.
That’s because you work for a place that has Airbus and one other fleet type?
 
If the end goal is widebody captain in 28.5 years...why not look at Atlas or Kalitta? They only fly wide bodies and you’ll upgrade in 5 years. Then you can say you’ve done it and do whatever you want. Plus no commuting.

I know very little about cargo flying outside of talking to MAC and FRE a while back. Either I don't know where to look, or the information on the actual hiring is scarce compared to the people flying airlines.
I was under the impression that those have the competitive mins on par with the majors?
Other than that I'm very open to the idea of flying boxes. Being mostly nocturnal by nature that might be a good fit
 
He's right, your chances of being a wide body captain before retirement are slim.

And it's not a time game, it's a numbers game. With the number of people already hired, you'll never get to the top of the list unless you're 23 right now.

I'm 35, and I'll retire as an Airbus captain.
That's a long time and everything can change.
 
He's right, your chances of being a wide body captain before retirement are slim.

And it's not a time game, it's a numbers game. With the number of people already hired, you'll never get to the top of the list unless you're 23 right now.

I'm 35, and I'll retire as an Airbus captain.

30 years is a long time, especially in aviation. Knowing if you will be a WB CA is a number game, but who knows what the mainline fleet will look like that far down the road. Who knows if those that are higher in seniority yet younger will even want to fly a WB. Way too many variables in the situation. @BigZ I say just get to the place you want to be and let the rest fall into place. In all honesty unless you have a real interest in a certain airframe, find the job that will suit your lifestyle the most. All 3 majors have a wide variety in their fleet and a ton of retirements through 2030. I'm sure you will find a place and airframe you will be happy with, how long that will take is the question that's hard to answer. Heck, I'm flying a dash-8 right now and am way happier in life than when I was flying a shiny jet last year. It's all about that good ole QOL!!
 
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I know very little about cargo flying outside of talking to MAC and FRE a while back. Either I don't know where to look, or the information on the actual hiring is scarce compared to the people flying airlines.
I was under the impression that those have the competitive mins on par with the majors?
Other than that I'm very open to the idea of flying boxes. Being mostly nocturnal by nature that might be a good fit

If you have 1300tt you are a long way from Spirit. It says the mins right now are 2k and some people do get called with around 2.5k tt but it's still not the norm. I'm hearing the average is between 3 and 4K but if a decent contract does get signed it will go up again. Best of luck with whatever you choose
 
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